Holding Unfolding – Episode 8 with Zed and David [transcript]

Abby
Hi, welcome to episode eight of Holding Unfolding, a podcast about facilitation. I’m Abby Oulton. I use she/her pronouns. I’m located on Lenape lands in New York City, and this week I have a conversation with Zed and David O’Connor from the Agile Learning Center in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. And the conversation is a little bit about facilitation and their Agile Learning Center. But we also get to talk a bunch about video games and road trip adventures and lessons and just generally what their experience has been over the past year and a half as folks who are parent and child and facilitators and learners in a self-directed community, you know, that is is their Agile Learning Center and in the broader community. So it was a really fun conversation and a really delightful sort-of interview. And I’m really excited to share it with you. So let’s get into it.

Abby
So hi.

Zed
Hi.

Abby
Welcome. It’s good to see you and to see you.

David
Hi.

Abby
So can we just get started with introductions? Want to give your names, your pronouns, and where you’re at in the world?

Zed
Sure. I guess I’ll go first. My name is Zed. I go by them pronouns, they/them/theirs. I don’t know. And I am a student at Philly ALC in Philadelphia, PA. Yeah.

David
I’m David and I see he/him pronouns. I’m Zed’s parent and I’m an agile learning facilitator at the Philly ALC.

Zed
In Philadelphia, PA.

Abby
And you were both there at the founding of the school, right?

David
We were there for one year then during two thirds of the way into our second year, we went home because of the virus and then stayed. And we stayed at home. Our family stayed at home through this entire past school year, except for the last few weeks where Zed’s going in person.

Zed
Yeah, a few days a week.

David
And we just wrapped up the school, just wrapped up its third year yesterday.

Zed
Yay!

Abby
Congratulations. That’s so exciting! So I was wondering if you could share a little bit about your roles in the ALC community, both officially and, like, as people who’ve been there for a minute?

David
Yeah, I think that I’m one of the sort of leading founders. There is a large group of families that founded the school together and I was one of the people, I think, driving the logistics of getting everything started along with Jean Finley mostly. And it was a really kind of exciting, fun time to get everything going and started. And then I was an ALF for a couple of years or the first the first year and a half for sure, and then when we decided not to come back this year, I’ve been taking a large step back from the school, still helping out with some back-end administrative things and helping with some offerings once in a while. But in the next year, I’ll be back full time and we’ll be back in the building full time and excited to be back in person. What would you say your role is in the school, other than as a student?

Zed
In addition to a student, I would think my role in the school is kind of a little bit all over the place. I think at school I have done a little bit of everything. I have, I have helped with clean up. I have helped with conflict resolution. I helped with agreements and stuff. I don’t feel like I have a set role, like I do this one thing. I feel like I am just someone who pitches in and helps out when there is something that needs to be resolved.

David
Yeah.

Abby
Are there specific things that — I’m thinking about, like, when new kids come into the space. Do you have particular things that you like to offer or share with them to help them get settled and oriented?

Zed
Sometimes, yes. I feel like more often than not, when a new kid comes in, I will be one of the kids to help them find their way around the school, get settled in and whatnot, and then explain how everything works. And often times kids are very confused and puzzled by all of it. But I. I feel like me and the other students and the adults help them understand. But if a new kid were to come in, I would probably hang out with them for a day, maybe half a day. I don’t know.

David
Well, yeah, but is that the kind of information you’re looking for? Or?

Abby
I mean, sometimes I know I’m watching, with new kids, when they come in, if they find their way around. And I’ve got certain kind of back pocket activities where I’m like, oh, I can always offer, like, let’s go into the makerspace or let’s go to the park. And those are my two kind of default activities. But I understand the way I’m thinking about that as an adult is different. Right? So I was curious, because I know that I’ve seen you in social spaces and have seen you take that more proactive kind of leadership role. I know I am very methodical, but was just curious.

David
Yeah, I think that’s… I mean, what I think is about how you talk about and advocate for the school. How you’re able to, I don’t know, talk to adults in a way that they’re less threatened than when I talk to them about the school sometimes. Where if you hear it coming from a kid, somehow it makes more sense.

Zed
It’s my charm, right?

David
Yeah, I think that’s partly true.

Abby
Well, I will attest to your charisma. That’s true.

Zed
That was not meant to happen.

David
But I do love moments where, like, we’re talking to people about school and I watch Zed sort of assess the person they’re talking to and then they give them the amount of information that they’re ready to hear. You know? And kind of translate in the moment what needs what needs to be heard.

Zed
I am a good conversate-or.

Abby
Were you always a good conversationalist?

Zed
Yes and no. I was good with having conversations with people who I knew better, but then… We get to, like, every Easter we go to our – my second cousin’s house. Yeah. We go to our second cousin’s house for Easter. I remember every single year when I was younger than I am right now, I think up until, like the age of seven, I was always so shy and not down for conversation until I got the candy.

Abby
Until you got to camp Stomping Ground?

Zed
No, until I got the candy.

Abby
Oh the candy! I thought you said the camp. I was like, what magical camp is this? So what changed? Do you recall? Because I’ve only ever known you as very confident in groups.

Zed
What changed about my personality? Not much has really changed. I feel like I’ve just been more open to, like, talking with people than I have in the past.

David
Yeah, I wonder… I’m thinking about your Easter story and that you’re shy until you get the candy. And —

Zed
I was making that more as a as a joke, but…

David
Yeah, no, totally. But the… I know what you mean, and I don’t know you as shy very, very much, but when I think of, like that place, there’s a lot of people there that we see, you know, once a year that you don’t really know. And also, we hang out with a lot of people who are, you know, we typically hang out with and surround ourselves with people who are — have a certain worldview, I think, and kind of see the world pretty openly. And I feel like that in that group, like, the company is a little bit more mixed in that way. I have a feeling that you have a sense of, like, you know, like, that is a space where maybe it takes a little while to understand that everyone’s cool there and that you can totally open up and be yourself in that. You know, I like that we spend time and also make spaces where people can kind of be themselves, hopefully. That’s what we try to do.

Zed
Yeah.

David
I feel that way about UU, about First Unitarian, where we go a lot.

Zed
Oh, yeah, yeah.

David
It’s a place where I just feel like I can just walk in. No hesitation, right? You’re like yourself, right? Just walking in.

Zed
Yeah.

Abby
Can I poke at that a little? What makes you feel like a space is a place where you can bring your whole self? And are there things you do when you’re running spaces or holding spaces to make them feel more that way for other people?

Zed
Well. I don’t know which section of that question to start on, so I’m just going to start with the first. If I am in, I feel like if I am in a group and I feel like I can be myself, that’s great. But the way I think that I feel like I can do that is asking people questions about stuff. Usually I’ll introduce myself, or more recently, I’ve been introducing myself more often with them pronouns. And. I’ve gotten…not any really severe to moderate things about it. Nothing bad, nothing bad, I guess, is what I’m trying to say. So I feel like, if I think that… If I just have, like, the gut feeling that, like, oh, these people seem pretty cool and they seem pretty open and pretty open minded, then that’s when I will think that I can really be myself. I don’t feel like there’s a space where I feel like I can’t really be myself.

David
It’s good. That makes sense. Yeah. Sometimes you walk into a space like the barbershop the other day. We walked in saying they and them. When they were asking about my son, I, you know, corrected them about my child. But they didn’t get it. They weren’t listening for it. Or, you know, or they’re pushing back against it, but…but then we didn’t push that. They were very kind and and welcoming and warm otherwise. We didn’t make that moment about that, but I was kind of, like, looking for your cues there. And I wasn’t sure if you’re waiting for me to step in or if you were like, this isn’t that place.

Zed
Yeah, I don’t feel like a barbershop is the place where I have to, like, say, oh, hey, I use they/them pronouns. And because it’s only like 90 minutes and I’m probably not going to see that person again ever. I mean, it is good to feel comfortable, even if it is for 90 minutes, but like it — it’s a decent amount of energy that I’m not willing to put in.

Abby
Barbershops are a really interesting example. There’s whole studies, right, on the culture of different kinds of barbershops. And that’s a big deal here, you know, especially for my friends who are non binary or trans or even when I’ve had really short hair…trying to figure out like, which barber shops is it safe for me to go into and which ones are like, I’m not going to be unsafe, like dangerous, but like, am I going to be harassed and made to feel uncomfortable in? And trying to assess that. And there’s little things, like if someone has the right sticker or greets me in a certain way, I don’t know for sure but I’m like, oh, maybe this is a safer space. So what have you been up to while you were home this year?

Zed
So Philly ALC has been doing a lot, and when I say a lot, I mean a lot of online stuff. So I was doing that. For like a solid, I want to say six to seven and a half months. Just tuning in whenever I can to stuff that sounds interesting. My dad made me try to do one offering a day, which is… I do think I should have done better at that, but I was like…I’m in quarantine and it’s — it’s whatever. And then for like the past three or four months, I don’t know, I basically… We’ve basically been like home schooling, not really tuning into any online offerings, but not going in person either. Meeting up with friends from school at like parks every now and then. We did that, like, once. Actually, that’s about all we’ve really been doing in quarantine: Zoom meetings.

Abby
What kind of Zoom meetings? You said you go to — you went to some of the online offerings. Were there any super interesting ones?

Zed
I remember there was this one about learning how to drive a car, and my questions were not at all about cars. It was all completely about what to look out for on the road, like traffic laws and stuff like that. And I had a really fun time talking with the ALFs about that. Another one that stands out, my dad here — pat, pat, pat — did a decent amount of — and when I say a decent amount I mean like once or twice a week, maybe — a crash course offerings. Like NPR crash course. That’s not what is, right? A crash course?

David
No crash — PBS.

Zed
PBS

David
PBS hosts a crash course show now. Yeah.

Zed
Yeah. So we did, like, crash course anatomy and physiology. Crash course computer science…

David
A lot of government and politics.

Zed
A lot of crash course government and politics. And then we — on our own one summer did or last summer we did a good amount of crash course US history. So I remember that being a pretty big thing we did. And one more thing that I have a pretty good memory of from all of this quarantine stuff, like I said earlier, trying to get to do offerings once a day. And when you’re not in person and like with other kids and more ALFs, that is surprisingly difficult. Well, it wasn’t really difficult. I’m just… I just procrastinated on that. I was like, hey, instead of doing this, I’m going to stream on Twitch or do — or play Minecraft until 4:00 in the morning. I feel like that last one gave ALC a bad image. That I feel like it’s portraying kids who can do whatever they want can and will only play video games all day, which is partially true. But I’m not going to say it’s completely true.

David
How do you feel about that?

Zed
How do I feel about…?

David
About the tendency, which I think is accurate of many kids, when they’re allowed to do what they want to do they default to playing video games? A lot. Maybe a lot. A lot. And particularly during a quarantine, maybe, you know, eight hours a day or more?

Zed
Wink, wink.

David
No winking. Just actually. Right? It’s true…

Zed
Yeah. Well… There are like no screen days…have days and… I’m not sure if any other ALCs do that. Does ALC-NYC do no screen days?

Abby
We don’t. We’re very pro screens, pro screen use. But I wonder if the more helpful way to frame the question would be to zoom back in to your own experience and ask, like, how did it feel to be able to take whole days to play video games and do that?

Zed
I will say it is a lot a lot of like, oh, I, I know I’m very tired, but I want to stay up later and play with friends. But I only get to stay up past midnight on Fridays. And oh I should eat lunch, I’m going to go eat lunch. And then friends are like, no don’t go eat lunch, we need to play video games. And I’m like, but lunch. And they’re like, but video games. It’s a lot of, like, joy when you get a good outcome in the video game and then a little bit of annoyance when you actually need to get real world stuff done.

Abby
Did you manage to go eat lunch?

Zed
Often, yes. Often I would not say, I’m going to go eat lunch. I would say, I’m going to go on mute. So that they would be… They wouldn’t have to question what I’m doing.

David
[Laughs]

Zed
Ah…I….

David
No, that’s such a good tactic. That completely makes sense. If you notice that, like, when I bring this idea to the group, that it causes tension that is kind of B.S. And so this time I’m going to sidestep the need to even deal with that tension and just give a more ambiguous answer that no one cares about.

Zed
Exactly.

David
You get what you need. You know, I like… You — you have a need and you had to try different tactics to get it. That’s great.

Zed
Yep. So then I would go make myself a grilled cheese, without the grilled part. Because it’s quick. It’s quick. It’s and — anyway, that was off topic.

Abby
No, it’s perfect. I’m hearing, like, your awareness of your needs and the role that being able to socialize plays. And so you’re trying to figure out, like, how do you get your needs met, including connecting with other people.

David
Yeah, I mean, I kind of hear a little bit… And the question I think — I wasn’t here when you asked the question, but it was something like what have you been up to during the quarantine? Or something like that? And — and that I hear you’re giving a lot of answers that, like, that are some of the things that we’ve been doing that have been, like, specifically and obviously, like, learning-oriented in a very sort of traditional, almost academic way. Which is interesting. Right? Because I feel like mostly actually what you’ve been doing during the quarantine is being online.

Zed
Yeah.

David
Which is always a tension. Right? Wanting to kind of give the answer we think people want to hear. But yeah, it’s been pretty, pretty online and there’s there’s definitely some times where it’s like, wow, that was way too long. Wow. I’m really tired now. I didn’t get these other things done that needed to get. And we’ve talked about that a lot. And I don’t know… A philosophy, I feel like, that I put my finger on this year which is really useful is like to, you know, to choose the day and not let the day choose you. And just a little bit more about intention setting in that way. And I think when we’ve done that, it’s been really great. And we don’t always do that either. Your year on computers was really awesome. I think — I feel like I’m just like watching you, like, zip around at the beginning of getting all the other settings set up here. Finding the link, you know. Sending it over to Abby. Just like, all of that is really second nature to you now. And that’s a whole form of communication that’s really important to learn and get good at. I think you’re — yeah, I love — I never know when I ask you, hey, what have you been watching, what you’ve been into lately. What you’re — it’s — there’s always something new and something fun. You’re just constantly learning, going down all these, like, kind of interesting rabbit hole and encountering all kinds of content, good and bad. Like, trying to parce what’s useful and what’s not. And yeah, and you can have just like a ton of fun and building really deep relationships with your…like, like I feel like your relationships with a few of your friends right now are, like, so substantial in a way that… They were kind of like just skimming the surface when you’re only seeing each other in person. It’s just, like, more. So it’s been a good year on the computer.

Zed
Yeah, computers have allowed me to talk to a few of my friends. And by a few, I mean like, oh, I don’t know, like seven people. No, not seven. More like more like five people who I talk to once or twice a week. And then there’s two people who I talk to basically daily. And usually, yes, we’re playing video games. It is mainly just, oh, yeah, let’s do this thing that we both enjoy doing.

David
I hear your friends teaching you things all the time. You’re like, how do I do this? And I hear you teaching your friends all the time. How to get this done. Here’s how to do this. I hear — maybe at the end of this you’re going to realize that I hear more than you think — and so forth. But but I also hear you, like, and you’re also often talking about the game and getting better at the game with each other and tossing around ideas. Often it’s like just a lot of like boasting how awesome you are at the game or like screaming how awful you are at the game. You know? Until you’re off the game. But then also you’re often talking about all kinds of things. You you you work out like interpersonal dynamics a lot. If they’re between you and the other people you’re talking to or like, you, like, replay conversations that you’ve had with other people and talk about what was right or wrong, what was good or bad. Sometimes you plot revenge…

Zed
We’ve done that once or twice. Yeah, we do do that a decent amount.

Abby
I mean, it’s kind of funny because you started telling me about the different offerings and then, like, mentioned late night video gaming and immediately backpedaled. And were like, oh, that’s a thing adults are afraid of, is kids playing video games and being up late at night. And listening to that as a facilitator, I’m like, oh, I failed in some way. I need to readjust. Next time — I should have introduced by, like… How could I have come in in a way that I’m like, no, it’s cool. Like, I also am most creative between, like, midnight and three. I am like, no judgment from me on that front, you know? And video games are valuable. Particularly — I think the…. Like to name that being in quarantine and being in pandemic times was stressful. And so part of what video games can be really good for is, like, taking a break from dealing with all that and doing something else. So that we’re better able to keep getting through it. So I actually think they’re super valuable. I could have led with that. Sorry.

David
For you, like, the video games are already really a normal part of your expression. I know I definitely played more video games during the pandemic.

Zed
Oh yeah. By the way, you didn’t know this: I can track your hours on how many times, on how many hours you have in War Zone. You have about four hundred hours in War Zone.

David
It’s a good pandemic game.

Zed
Let me just check really quick…. 494 hours on the dot.

David
Yeah.

Abby
What have your hit games been this past year?

Zed
Minecraft and Geometry Dash. I think a lot of people know what Minecraft is. If you don’t, I will explain it in a nutshell. In a nutshell: break tree, build house, gather resources, kill dragon. That’s the survival mode, and then there’s all these servers you can go on and make and such. And then Geometry Dash, not the most popular game, still decently well known, I think. It’s basically, in a nutshell, tiny cube jump over a spike pit to inevitable death, try to get to portal to escape hell.

David
You’ve been playing a lot of, like, Bedwars, specifically, in Minecraft.

Zed
Yes. Bed Wars is a game mode where there’s, there’s either four, two or 12 teams. They all go up against each other. And you have a bed. You have to defend your bed and break other teams’ beds. It’s basically like a last man standing kind of thing.

Abby
I could just lean into the video game talk, but that’s tempting, but actually, if you’re doing live streams, maybe we should chat and plan on that separately, because I get asked a lot about video games. I just had a call Monday where we talked about it for like two hours, where these grown-ups were like, should we ban screens in our learning center? And…right? Would you like to vocalize thatfacial expression, since this going to be a podcast?

Zed
The face was: No, no, bad idea. Yes, kids will probably play video games, but also it’s good to have access to the Internet.

David
And it’s good to play video games.

Zed
And that.

Abby
Are there — from the before times or now as you’re transitioning a little bit back to in person — are there offerings that you’ve really enjoyed?

Zed
If I’m being honest, when I was back at school, I did only one offering, which is a history of of pride. As a gay pride, LGBTQI+ pride. So that. That offering was really good. But other times, basically what I would do all day was go to, go to CVS with my friends to get, like, an iced tea. Because that’s what they wanted to do. and then go sit down at this little, slightly secretive bench, not super hidden, not easily accessible, not very visited during the middle of the day bench. Sit down there for like two and a half hours, do random stuff, play tetherball, go back to school. And I enjoyed that. That was nice. I do wish I did more offerings. Nothing really appealed to me, though.

David
How about from before or things that you’re hoping for next year?

Zed
From before, I have this vivid memory of — I did a jujitsu offering, because I, I knew a decent amount. I know a decent amount of jujitsu. And by decent amount I mean about three and a half years trained in jujitsu. So I tried to do a jujitsu offering. I threw on my GI and set up, like, what we call in our school Pluto mats. They’re, like, those little tiny foam pad things. Like, like, like puzzle pieces. Kind of the reason we call them Pluto mats is because there’s this one kid at our school named Colin, and he’s like one of the class clowns of no class school. If that makes sense.

David
On so many levels.

Speaker 2
And he was, like, at a check-in / changeup, and everyone was referring to these mats as just “the mats,” because they were the only mats we had at the time. And Colin just said, can we call these Pluto mats? Because they’re — they’re not really mats. They’re not really, like, big thick mats. But they’re not, like, “tiles of marble,” basically, is what he said. And now we call them Pluto mats. That’s just as, like, a joke kind-of.

David
They were mats once and then they were not.

Zed
But I remember I did this jujitsu offering. Set up the Pluto mats. And I did this. Every kid, I tried to…. I’ll admit, I tried to teach them a little bit of a complicated thing. Not super complicated, though. And then I did a second one the next week, right? Zero kids showed up. And on the first lesson — or not lesson, offering…I should say, offering, because I was offering to teach. And anyway, zero kids showed up. The first time, like 13 kids showed up. I feel like I know why they didn’t come back, but I’m not sure. I think it’s just because it seemed a little bit too complicated. Or a lot too complicated. And like, oh, this and first impressions matter. As we all know. That’s really true, and I don’t think I made a good first impression, no one came back.

David
I’ve had lots of offerings like that, too. Yeah, I’ve done something that I’m excited about, I think is really interesting. And people come and then they don’t come back. And yeah, for all kinds of different reasons.

Abby
Yeah, I’ve definitely been guilty of starting at a level of complexity that was not where the group was, right? Yeah, it’s tricky to gauge that sometimes.

David
It is. Often I just have to ask. Like, you know, we’re used to a form where it’s like, I’m going to do a class on this and then people show up and then you just do that class. Which is, like, the material you’re ready to talk about and I know. With like a lot of new information, new skills things, I tend to like show up and say, OK, what do you guys want to talk about? You know, that usually helps. I was doing a geography offering once. Kids were asking for it and I had a whole thing I was going to do. And then got there and and asked them what they were interested in. It turns out they were really interested in this whole other aspect of things. So we did that. It turned out to be a really interesting offering, a lot of fun. And I offered it, like, if you want to pick a country and come back and tell us about it a little bit…Well, students really got into that.

Abby
Yeah, I recognize it is a little limiting to ask about offerings specifically, because it’s totally valid and wonderful to spend days, like, going to CVS and hanging on a bench. I was asking because most of the people listening to this are facilitators. So I was wondering about your experiences facilitating or your experiences — which you both talked about a little bit — or your experiences being in a space somebody else is facilitating. And what about, like, someone else’s facilitating works for you? Zed, you said the pride history offering was good…Like, that’s also super interesting content, right?

David
But that’s something you’re passionate about and really kind of connected to.

Zed
Yeah.

David
Yeah. I’ve — I’ve enjoyed offering opportunities. Just like, improv or theater or game playing. You know? Board games and kind of all kinds of that play where, I don’t know, rather than bringing content I’m just bringing structure, you know? And and setting — and just setting up a time and a place and some, some other forms of a box to explore within. And then we have a blast playing improv or playing board games or playing football or playing whatever we’re playing. Yeah. And then yeah, often I — With more content offerings, that tends to be stuff that I’m just interested in, what I want to dig into. And sometimes people come along. Remember like eight million years ago, before the pandemic? Do you remember any, like, offerings that you used to like?

Zed
I really like the improv games. But I feel like I was a little bit biased on that, because you you teach and you taught, yeah, you taught improv at UU for a while. That was the church we were talking about earlier. I remember you taught improv there. And then I did that a lot and I was like, oh, this is super fun. So I feel like I was a little bit biased in that, but I enjoyed it. Just at ALC, doing it with kids was so much more interesting than doing it with, like people who are at least 15 years older than me at all times. Yeah, I, I do think kids… I’m not saying that adults have a bad imagination, but I do think kids, if they did more improv, like, improv was a more, I guess, widely available thing, then it would be like, oh, kids can have a lot of fun doing this.

David
Yeah. I find a tendency for, like, adults when they play improv, they need… They really need things to make sense. And that’s important. Like, we’re going to play a game and I need this to make. And then that becomes part of the fun of the game is on the fly trying to take these random things that are happening and then make them make sense. That isn’t to say that we don’t throw in new elements and take things on a twist and do all that, but that ultimately adults, when they’re playing, really want a sensible story to come out. I find that often, like, kids don’t care about that at all. You know? It doesn’t need to make any sense. What it needs to be is, like, silly or funny or active or energetic in some way. Like, that’s — that’s what’s really important. And so those are — they can be at odds when when kids and adults are trying to make the game what they need or what they want.

Zed
A lot of times there will be kids who are just like [chaotic screeching sound effects] whenever we’re doing improv. And then other times there will just be the older kids who are, like, calm and collected and, like, try to make it pretty comedic, but not like, “oh my God, my pants exploded and now I’m pooping everywhere.”

David
Yeah, usually it becomes about poop or pants exploding. Yeah.

Zed
Or one of the older kids will end up stabbing somebody.

David
Yeah. Violence. Often turns to violence.

Abby
Classic. So do you have tricks for when you are trying to do improv with people and you notice either that members of the group aren’t giving cues — like they’re not all in — or if you notice that members are stuck and having trouble with receiving cues?

Zed
I do feel like when that ends up happening, I’ll be like, “Oh hey, this is happening. Help me fix this problem in this scene.” And then they’ll just jump on it. Or or I’ll be like, “So what have you been doing?” And then they’ll jump in on that. Or something. “I don’t know what to do” in the… Not in, like, I cannot think of any cues, but in, like, an improv kind of way. Like “God, some sand would be really nice right now.” Yeah I, I those are a few of my tactics. But then again, just a game. No big deal.

David
Yeah. I mean there’s…Depending on the crowd, there’s all kinds of different games to play that have different requirements in that way where, you know, it isn’t like leaning on you to decide when it’s your turn to jump in. The game is coming at you and you have to play, you know, then. So understanding what the group is ready for in that way feels really good. A game like… A game like Zip Zap Zop or something like that? You can’t…. You can’t choose when you’re playing. You just have to wait and be ready. And that… There’s a lot of more active, imaginative improv games that are like that. Where like, the game is going to come at you and you have to be ready and jump in and play. Versus like, the games where it’s like waiting. You know? Creating space, waiting for you to jump in, and then you have to decide when you’re ready to. Which is another skill. It’s a whole ‘nother skill. Switching things up all the time is really useful. Like, having just a whole bunch of ways to, like, change the game in the moment, you know? Adding a new dynamic, dimension, to the game. OK, now backwards! Go! And just like…Improv is great like that. Just like, everyone knows that they’re ready to, like, respond to whatever is happening. And so it is an opportunity. You can change the structure, what’s happening, immediately and — and shift it up. Also, like changing constantly who’s in charge is is pretty useful. Like handing facilitation of it over to somebody else, particularly someone who is feeling very powerful or someone who has, like, a ton of energy and isn’t giving enough room to play. If you hand them facilitation, then all of a sudden they’re getting everybody to play. And that’s a good way to use someone’s overdrive of energy. Keeping an eye, of course, for when everyone else is getting tired of that, and shifting it up again. Yeah, changing rapidly often is good. I like games where like — that have room for the participants not to only invent content, but to invent the rules as they go. To kind of change the structure of the game as they’re building it. Those games, with kids especially, tend to be really successful. Adults, that — that’s a thing you have to work on. You really have to work on that skill of like adding rules to the game and inviting them to and encouraging it. And that — that’s hard. Kids get that right away and they really like it.

Zed
Usually the rules are you always have to say yes. And that’s about it.

David
Yeah, I feel like that’s an overall improv principle, yes. It’s like, yeah, yeah. And and a good life principle, just to say yes to what’s happening.

Zed
Yes, and let’s not. I found a loophole. Yes, and let’s not do that. Or you could say yes and the beach balls are exploding… Why is that the first thing that came to my mind?

David
I’m glad that you just said the first thing that came to your mind. That’s a good skill, too, rather than editing, although now you’re editing it a little bit.

Zed
How would the beach balls be exploding?

David
Exactly. That’s not your problem. You just put it out there. They’re exploding.

Zed
Oh, my God.

David
You let your team solve it.

Zed
Why are those beach balls…?

David
They must be full of hydrogen.

Zed
Or grenades.

David
Yeah.

Zed
I’m not sure that’s allowed to go on the terms of service of whatever thing you’re posting on.

Abby
Are you having feelings about being on the Internet talking about grenades and exploding beach balls?

Zed
I’m not uncomfortable with that. I’m just — I just think it might be against the terms of service.

David
I’m fascinated by that. Can I say that, that often when you’re on the Internet streaming, that you’re very aware of the authority that’s sitting out there, you know, ready to censor you?

Zed
Well, I have to be, yeah. My favorite part of the Twitch TOS, which stands for terms of service, is you’re not allowed to commit any local, state-wide, national, or international crimes on Twitch.

David
Sure. They have to say that. Right.

Zed
Which is fair. Well, we don’t want anyone getting any ideas.

David
There are others… There are all kinds of different levels of jurisdiction. They have to be able to cover their butts later. To be able to say, “You didn’t do this — you violated the Geneva Convention on Twitch, so we’re taking you down…”

Zed
Timmy shouldn’t have committed forty nine acts of arson. Oh, Timmy… Actually, I think that’s national.

David
Probably depends on what you’re burning.

Abby
We could get into which markets they make their terms of service agreements based on and, like, when it’s like, oh, we don’t actually feel like changing our algorithm based on place. But I’m curious about where you are getting your ideas and information about, like, how to be watching yourself and what to look out for.

Zed
I read the terms of service. And then usually I will have it open on another tab on my browser while I’m streaming.

David
You’ll have the terms of service pulled up on your browser?

Zed
Yes.

David
That’s thorough. Wow.

Zed
I will have my chat pulled up. I will have my moderator bot pulled up. And I will have the terms of service pulled up, just so that if, that thing in chat you said doesn’t seem right, I’m going to just check this out real quick. Or…here’s me accidentally lighting this painting of peppers back here on fire. Doesn’t seem like a good thing to have on Twitch? Whenever I think I’ve broken the terms of service and the term or the terms of use, I just check it out.

David
Because Twitch will ban you or whatever?

Zed
Probably not, but still. Just in case.

David
Well, I appreciate that. This is actually on my account, so thanks for being so careful. And also maybe you don’t have to be so careful.

Abby
When you’re on YouTube or Roblox, like, your other platforms, are you as thorough?

Zed
I’m not super big on Roblox or YouTube. Or on Twitch, but I feel like Twitch is more strict about their guidelines.

Abby
I hear some some Minecraft server hosts are pretty strict. Have you had any experiences…?

Zed
They’re very strict about hacking. Like if you or someone on your friends list gets caught hacking on this server, you will get banned. One of my friends’ friends, hacked on HyPixel, the biggest server in Minecraft, and then they all got banned for three years, three and a half years.

David
They all?

Zed
Everyone associated with that. The person who was hacking got permanently banned, and then everyone else got banned for three and a half years. So they’re very strict about that.

David
Just because they knew someone who was hacking?

Zed
Knew them and played with them a lot. They’re also pretty strict about what you say in chat. They don’t do a lot, surprisingly enough, about, like, racism or homophobia or xenophobia, transphobia or other stuff like that. They — they’re just like, OK, you said this mildly sexually related thing. You’re — you cannot speak in chat for a week now.

David
So they’re worried much more about sex than hate.

Zed
Yeah. I have experienced homophobia on HyPixel a lot. I’ve been called the F slur two different times in a Bed Wars game. I’ve been in a lobby filled with a bunch of homophobic and racist people. Who said “BLDM,” implying Black lives don’t matter, and then was like, “Jk. Jk. Black lives do matter, but gays don’t.” And then I was like, “Homophobic,” and then I was like, “You’re being super homophobic right now.” They were like, “Lol. Gay.”

Speaker 2
And I’m like, “I am, though.” And they’re like, LOL. And then called me a dumb homosexual. And the F slur, which HyPixel did absolutely nothing about. And there were like 40 people in that lobby. And now I know I should have reported those people, but I didn’t.

David
Yeah, it’s awful.

Zed
It’s terrible.

David
Video game, online video game spaces can be really toxic, really full of all kinds of hate and, and kind of violence and aggression almost in language and…

Zed
There is a lot of studies about this. I can’t remember any of them off the top of my head, but there is this effect in psychology where people feel more free to say stuff when they’re behind a screen.

David
Oh, totally. Right. Like, yeah, in these anonymous places, it’s easier to be, to say the most, to be that, like, a worse version of yourself or maybe a version of yourself or some other version of yourself that is less accountable to people. And so it’s more fun to hold power over others by hurting them.

Abby
Yeah, there’s that. Because moderation on the Internet is consistently not centering the needs of a lot of queer and racially minoritized humans that I work with, specifically young humans, I hear a lot of kids having experiences like you described, Zed, which like… I’m sorry that happened and it sucks that it’s normal. And your comment about, “oh, now I know I should have reported those people” is something I’ve heard, too, as our kids are trying to figure out, like, if the moderators won’t protect me, how do I pick when to stay in a space or go to a different game? And when do I block people? All that kind of stuff. Like how did you learn to report people or whatever other hacks you have?

Zed
Well, there are commands listed on the Minecraft servers I play to tell them, hey, if someone’s doing a bad thing, report this person and then let our moderators and our robots that help with this stuff do the rest. Or there’s this new thing on HyPixel called Atlas, which is basically someone reports someone to Atlas and then a real human judges whether or not this person should or should not, should or should not get banned. And then there’s also there’s these pop-ups sometimes that say “this robot has banned forty two thousand people in the past seven days for doing such and such. If you have a problem, report it to our robot.” So it’s mainly just like pop-ups and people telling you, like, on forums and YouTube and stuff, how to report these people and what you should look out for.

Abby
OK, thank you. Yeah. I’m aware I’ve been keeping you for a really long time, but I haven’t asked at all about your road trip.

Zed
And what questions do you have?

Abby
I want to know if you had agreements that you made together before heading out and how you made your plan and how you made choices. And if you have any highlights or stories of, like, something going in a very unexpected way.

Zed
We have a lot of stories, but I will start out with your old I’ll try and go from beginning to end. We did not have any agreements. It was all just we’re going on a one month road trip. Pack your bags. Be prepared. So a lot of it…

Abby
Wait, wait. Was “be prepared” that open? Were there specifics in it?

David
We did a lot of planning beforehand. We, like, we decided we were really clear that on this trip, going out, I think, that we were going to not drive too much each day. That we were going to camp, and that it was going to be hard and but also fun. We did talk about that a bit. Does that make sense? Does that feel true?

Zed
Yeah.

David
That we were going to play disc golf a lot on the way. We’re — we plotted out all kinds of courses we were going to play at and, like, a list of the best courses across the country. And saw how many of them were sort of close to our route. And that actually helped dictate our route. But, of course, like so many agreements, that broke down. We got out. We did some disc golfing in the first three days. Four days.

Zed
Yeah.

David
Which is really fun for Z and me, but Maddy, who is much shorter and much more interested in moving through natural spaces slowly instead of, like, throw the disk and walk, was basically like, this is bull. No more of this. She didn’t say it in those terms, but that’s what she meant. And so we didn’t do it. No more disc golf.

Zed
No more.

David
When I think of agreements, I think of towards the end of the trip. There was — like you had a lot of like, “I need to be by myself.” That’s like…the three of us were a little bit together. And I feel….

Zed
A little bit. Like, we were only together for, like, three and a half weeks at that point. Only a little bit.

David
That wasn’t what we were doing. And it felt like, I don’t know, that you felt complicated about wanting that or saying that. But we got to it. And then we, like, made like agreements around that. Right. We figured out some spaces together that you’re going to be in this space; I was going to be in that space. Maddy over here… And kind of giving each other some room. Like you were in the car while we were setting up camp so you could hang out with your friends on the phone and stuff. Even though I had to, like, knock on the window like 12 times as I needed different things…

Zed
Like, oh, sorry, I need my shower cap. Oh, sorry, I forgot a pole for the tent. Oh, sorry. I need to grab food. Sorry. I need to grab water. Oh, sorry.

David
[Laughs]

Abby
Sounds like a road trip.

Zed
Yeah.

Abby
Well acquainted…

Zed
Mostly our trip was preplanned, but on the occasion things did not go to plan, we had this magical thing called calling our mother. Right? So we were like, “Mom, we tried to camp in the Shenandoah. All the campsites were full and it’s super dark and thunderstorming and cold.” And then she’s like, “OK, here’s a hotel.” We only stayed in, like, four hotels.

David
I think I’d say like a third of the nights out we were in a hotel or an Airbnb. And two thirds of them camping.

Zed
Yeah. So often times it was either preplanned what we were going to do or it was like, “OK, help.” And then we got help.

David
I think we were — we were doing something really well, which is, like, kind of setting the day pretty often. Like, like, the ritual getting in the car was, like, talking about what was going to happen next. Or at night, there’d be a lot of putting the decisions out to the group. I was learning the whole time, like, what — what are the kinds of decisions that kids wanted to put in. And what are the kinds of decisions that… There’s a lot of things where it’s like, “Hey, are you — want to go to this amazing place or this amazing place?” And didn’t really have enough information for the kids to choose, and they’re just ultimately kind of like, “Well, we’ll just kind of go where you say we’re going to go.” Which is OK. And which to me is like, I don’t like that idea at first. And then after a while, it’s like, oh, no, that’s really what they what they want is like… I want to, I want to talk about what we’re going to eat for sure. I want to talk about what sleep is going to be like and… But then where we’re going to go? It’s like, I don’t know. It’s like, so far so good. So let’s just keep doing that. You know?

Zed
You took us Whitewater canoeing. Nine miles, took us five and a half hours. I knew that we were going to do that like a day in advance. And I was like, oh, that’s not going to be that bad. Our canoe almost tipped three times. It filled half with water in the first 15 minutes of us being out. And then after that, then you took us to these like naturally formed water slides. And I almost got trapped under water and got kind of banged up because it was made out of stone because the stone was cut into by the water.

David
Yeah, it’s awesome.

Zed
That was pretty awesome. Yeah. The Grand Canyon was also pretty awesome.

David
I appreciated those, “that was awesome,” in a pure sense of that word. Right. Yeah, I appreciated like in the river, like, the times that we really had moments where it’s like, from my perspective, having been in those that kind of danger before, like I was like, this is fine. At no point did I feel like we were at risk. But I really recognized in you and Maddy that like, that beginning especially, the beginning being like, oh my God, we’re going to die. Like, I could feel that feeling from you guys. And then we survived it. And by the end, we were going through much bigger rapids. You know? And you guys were singing and shouting and laughing.

Zed
I remember towards the end, I phrased us paddling, rowing, I don’t know, super hard as big ice cream scoops. And towards the end when it was like super hard rapids, I was like, OK, let’s name scoops! Vanilla! Moose tracks! Chocolate chip! Regular chocolate! Strawberry! We were just trying to make it like, OK, we did pretty intense stuff and now we know what to do and how to handle ourselves. We’re not actually gonna die.

David
Yeah, it was pretty fun. I think even after you found yourself banged up and felt like you were thrust underwater by the currents, you still went again.

Zed
I did!

David
Yeah, I think it’s kind of cool, I think, to watch. I like those moments, where it’s like, you got to something that was really hard and felt sort of dangerous. And then next time you have a better sense of what it actually is, right?

Zed
Now because of the natural water side, I’m like, man, I should do one of those like drop in water slides.

David
I remember like, a couple of the campsites that we went to were beautiful, but sort of a pain in the butt to get into.

Zed
Totally.

David
Like our first night we had to, you know, we’re trying to do car camping. Pull up, open the trunk, pull out the tent. There is like… The first site that we went to, I didn’t really notice or know that it involved like a two hundred yard sort of schlep across a bridge, across the river, over to the site. And this is like our first night. And we couldn’t really find the site initially. The directions were terrible.

Zed
We were driving for eight hours that day.

David
Yeah, that was one of our longer driving days, but it was like the first night we were camping. So we had like a lot of excitement and energy and like, let’s do this. And then one of our last nights of camping, our last night of camping, was another site that was, like, far away. And not too far away, but it was kind of straight uphill. And I remember that moment, like, you were really — you were like, No. Like this is…. Like, you were not having it. You were not.

Zed
I was… I was like, get me over with this. I want to hug my mom already, Jesus.

David
I remember…. I remember just that as another…. I was like, actually kind of like really mad at you for… I felt like you were, like, complaining about it.

Zed
Yeah.

David
Rather than solving about it. And I think that I feel like that was a really hard but important conversation that we were having about that.

Zed
Yeah, I agree. Yeah.

David
What do you remember, did you take away from that?

Zed
I remember I was just like, [arrrrgh arrrrgh].

David
Yeah.

Zed
[aaaaargh.] Noises. I don’t want to do this, but I don’t have a choice, but I don’t want to do this. Right? And it was like, oh my God, I’ve missed Mom for so long and I know if she was here it would make things so much easier and I could just hug her. I remember feeling really that way about the Grand Canyon. We did a five mile hike, four point seven mile hike with Maddy, who can only do like two miles maximum. So we did it and had to carry Maddy for like a solid quarter of it. I didn’t wear tall enough socks, so I got blisters. We got to the end and we were like, oh, God, we need food, and we need to use the bathroom. We did that. And then Maddy started feeling sick. She was just very hangry. So we ended up doing — we were going to catch a shuttle and get back to the car, go grab some food. The shuttle routes were closed. So what we ended up having to do is hike for another mile…

David
It was way over a mile.

Zed
We got some food and dad did the rest of the walking, got the car and picked us up from, like, this restaurant. And I was just miserable the entire time. It was like, oh, my God, let me get out of this place. It was fun, but hectic nonetheless.

David
Yeah, in the moment, it didn’t really feel fun. Like a lot of that day felt fun, but that part felt really hard. I remember. And I think we were really glad we were done with it.

Zed
We were like, OK, that was fun. Let’s not do that again.

David
Yeah, that was a good plan until the shuttles weren’t there.

Abby
Yeah. I mean, that’s like kind of a — I feel like a classic and necessary part of any road trip. Right? Is the one day where you’re like, we have a plan. There’s an obstacle. OK. An obstacle. OK. And then you get just, like, one too many and you’re like, oh my God, I’m so done. And then you have to figure out — do I need to vent before I can problem solve? Are the other frustrated people with me the people to vent to? Or are they also upset and we need to, like, all go, you know, vent to, like, a tree or a squirrel or something and then regroup?

David
Like, yeah, I feel like for me there’s like a couple of moments that if, like, five years ago me went on this trip, that I would have sort of muscled through a lot of that. I would dragged you guys kind of through that a little bit. But what we did instead is we just stopped and we rested. For a long time. For like forty five minutes. And regrouped. And that — that was — that was good. And you were so good with her, like, that moment in the Grand Canyon when Maddy got sick and that, you know… You were really supportive of her. And yes, it’s definitely the moment like, oh, this is the person that needs our attention now. And everything just sort of slowed down and stopped. And we moved at Maddy pace for a while. And then I’m thinking about like that time dragging things up the hill where, you know, I might have just, like, not dealt with your upset. You know, and been just like, OK, you’re upset. I’ll do all the dragging. But so we, like, slowed down. We talked for a while and then we took the time to decide together that this is what we’re doing. And then I feel like you really kind of pitched in and got it done. It was hard to like, I think in that moment, like decide together. No, this is this is what’s happening and this is what we’re doing. And it doesn’t have to — like it was like, legitimately we were talking about what we could figure out, how to get another site. We could go to a hotel. There were other options. And then we decided together to like, dig deep and do that that climb up that hill. That was a big moment for me, anyway, of watching you figure out that and working together to decide that we’re going to do that.

Abby
I mean, the other part about that, like, being pretty inevitable on a road trip, is the, like, after part where if you do figure it out successfully, then you’re like, oh, this relationship is different. Oh, my sense of myself and capabilities are different. That sunset was really great.

David
Yeah, I’m struck by a moment after the trip, the road trip, where I can’t remember what it was, but there was like something — something that was happening that, we were doing. That we had to get in the car and go somewhere. And we hadn’t really told you about it. We just went. We just got in the car and went. This is after we got home from the road trip. And I remember that you were so really upset by that.

Zed
I wasn’t upset. I was just like, oh my God, wait, I wasn’t listening earlier today. And I was like, oh, my God. I was having basically, like, emotional overload. Yeah, but I don’t think that I was, like, sad.

David
Yeah, well, yeah, that’s…emotional overload. I was feeling that from you for sure. And I was just thinking about, like, how methodical and careful we were about, as the trip was happening, about constantly going over what was going to happen. And that we were very much part of the plan, that we would talk about the plan. And then we would call someone, you would tell them about the plan. And it was like, good to, good to have these, like, multiple passes at the plan and and to kind of tell the story to each other about what the plan a lot. And that somehow in our regular life, when we got back here, some of that got short circuited. And I felt like how – how – how distressing it can be. To think you know what the plan is, but you don’t. I didn’t notice how important that was before, I guess.

Abby
Yeah, well, and not having to check your assumptions constantly, which is part of the return home. And I’m curious to see how it shows up as more of us are returning to our spaces next year. It’s like, when your only assumption is that things will continue to change, you make plans and communicate kind of constantly in these small iterations. Right? But once we start assuming like, oh, we know how this is, sometimes we don’t. We lose that.

David
I’m really excited about, in so many ways, the momentum coming back from a pandemic as like… This is happening at every level, like in our family, at our school or church, in our city and our country. Like the just the asking, like, what do we do before that we really need and what do we do before that we’ve learned that we don’t need what are these, like, rituals that we were attached to and doing that are serving a purpose that doesn’t exist in the same way anymore or doesn’t exist at all anymore? And like how can we, like, reshape what our day looks like? I’m excited about that. Yeah, I guess I really I what I love about the road trip is like we did things, we did a lot of things that were really hard and really different and that was great. And so just like creating opportunities, I’m thinking towards that, like how to kind of create opportunities to do things that are hard and different and a lot of growing, lot of changing.

Abby
So thank you.

David and Zed
Thank you.

Abby
Are there any people or resources that you want to shout out? Typically this question is like, you know, about people and resources that have been helpful for you as a facilitator, but also it can just be open.

Zed
Slack.

Abby
Did you say Slack?

Zed
Yeah. Google calendar. Zoom. My dad, my dad. I want to shout out my dad.

David
Yeah. I don’t know how to think about that question right now. I feel like that there’s a lot of resources I’ve read before. amb and Akilah. I’ve been digging bell hooks a ton recently. And I guess what — for some reason what that makes me think of is like, I’ve loved in a lot of this last year, a lot of the facilitating I’ve ended up doing, like, is not at school, not ALC. That it’s just like a lot of….I teach in the theater community a lot. And teaching online theater is its own beast for sure. And and there was like — and there’s Facebook groups and there’s like a need. And then I’m like, say let’s have a meeting. And all of a sudden there’s like this huge international meeting with one hundred people talking about it. And it’s just like. The need and the use, the power of facilitation for moments like this, where we’re going to need to form communities that are powerful quickly and often. This pandemic is, I don’t think, the last world changing thing that my kids are going to experience or be through. And to have the community building tools that — that facilitation provides is pretty cool and pretty useful. I knew that and just sort of glad to see that in practice. Also say, like a lot of the families that I’m around, it’s clear that, like our sort of family philosophies and the way the kids are already set up actually made transition to our new life during the pandemic, felt to — to felt to me for our family pretty easy, pretty smooth that we’re ready to kind of adjust to what needed to happen. And we were ready to to think about things differently quickly. There wasn’t a lot that we were holding on to tightly, because it’s that holding on tightly that causes a lot of tension sometimes. Or damage even. Yeah, I don’t have good new resources right now. It’s just good to practice in different ways, I guess.

Abby
Well, thank you.

David and Zed
Thank you.