Hi, welcome to Holding Unfolding, a podcast about facilitation. I’m Abby Oulton. I use she/her pronouns and am based in New York City on unceded Lenape lands. And I’m kind of having feelings about this being the fifth episode. Because that isn’t a whole lot in terms of Internet expectations for productivity, but, um, since I’ve been doing these interviews and then editing and processing and uploading the audio and doing all the transcriptions, um, it’s been a significant amount of learning and labor on my end.
And I’m pleased about it and very excited to get to share this interview with you. Um, so that’s exciting. And I did this interview from a park after a day where I spent eight hours outside with teenagers. And. It was really excellent and amazing and also means that the audio has birdsongs and traffic noises that I don’t have the skills to edit out yet. And I’m not totally sure that I would edit them out even if I could.
Just a few quick notes before we jump into the interview. Amber and I are going to mention progressive schools. And if you aren’t in education, you should know that we aren’t talking about schools that generally line up with contemporary progressive politics and its values. Right. If we’re talking about progressive schools and progressive education, we’re referring to a philosophy that dates back to the 19th century and the writings of John Dewey and the contemporary schools that model themselves off of that philosophy and its early schools.
I can put links in the show notes if you want to learn more. Some other schooling philosophies and models that Amber is going to mention really quickly include Montessori, Reggio Emilia and Democratic schools. If you’re interested, I can put links in the show notes. There’s a whole lot to be read about each of those. But the important thing here is that those are references to specific philosophies.
And she’s going to make a comment about or talk a little bit — er, extensively — about the way that educators and teachers are socially positioned in U.S. history and the gendered expectations put on people doing care work and child care labor. And there’s several chapters of the new book, Work Won’t Love You Back
by Sarah Jaffe that cover that phenomenon in — in detail and are super interesting if you are looking for more details. She’s going to mention the AERO Conference, Alternative Education Resource Organization. And they are a longstanding organization that isn’t specifically about self directed education, but generally have offered resources and events to support folks looking for alternative to conventional education or whatever their local like mass institutional education is.
Yeah…We both have a complicated relationship to that organization, having experienced some misogyny there and had some other
complaints about their events where we called leadership in and were not responded to well. That said, their events have been a site where a lot of really awesome people, in self directed education specifically and alternative education generally, have found each other and inspired each other. Which is the phenomenon Amber refers to here as, you know, the role they played in her journey. So that’s worth clarifying and acknowledging. She’s going to shout out Akilah Richards. I’ll put Akilah’s many offerings– links to her many offerings in the show notes. She’s going to shout out Parable of the Sower
and Octavia Butler. Also great. And she makes a comment about not having invented self-directed education and not having made up this approach and, you know, implies a nod to the long lineage of folks who’ve been raising kids in trustful, curious, creative relationship for ever. And there’s an excellent article about who gets credit for that and who doesn’t that I will also link to in the show notes. It’s called “Ours First” by Dr. Kelly Limes Taylor.
And finally, she’s going to mention ALF calls and we’re going to talk a little bit about her ALF calls. So ALF there is an acronym for Agile Learning Facilitator, and ALF calls are weekly or biweekly offerings from folks in the ALC network to other facilitators, and they’re meet-up / support / relationship-building spaces. And so the calls that Amber cohosts, she co-hosts with Mel Compo, who is based here in New York with me, and with Jean Finley from ALC Philly, who hopefully we’ll hear from in another episode soon.
Those are all my notes on this episode. So let’s get into the interview. Enjoy.
Abby
Hi. Hi. Can you start by introducing yourself, just your name, your pronouns and where you’re at in the world?
Amber
Yeah, I am Amber Sawyer. I use she/her pronouns and I’m in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma.
Abby
And you’re at Rivers and Roads, right?
Amber
Yes.
I’m at Rivers and Roads ALC and Nature School. Yes. More specifically and importantly…
Abby
Would you be down to share a little bit about your project and your role there?
Amber
Sure, yeah.
Rivers and Roads is in our fourth full school year and fifth year of conception.
So it’s a fun place. We feel like we’re stretching out of some of those early growing pains and ebbing and flowing. So we’re wrapping up the school year now. So it feels like everyone’s kind of in a reflective place.
So we have been talking a lot about what has Rivers and Roads been through all of the years. So that’s very cathartic and beautiful and exciting and lots of talks on, Where are we going with it? Where are we today? Good stuff. I facilitate here. I’m also one of the co directors.
Abby
And one of the founders…
Amber
And one of the founders, yes. Yes.
Abby
Well, and your space is special because you live there and because you back up to a giant nature preserve.
Amber
Yes, we — it unfolded itself to us. We were in– we had an original location, and it’s a very long story. But as a lot of these projects go, like a month before our first official day, we no longer had that location. So we — there were a lot of things that all pulled together that — We ended up in a house that backs up to a one hundred acre nature park. And it’s also a wildlife preserve. So it’s very ridiculous. There are
deer that come grazing through the day, that we give apples to. It’s not real life. It’s very special. It’s really beautiful. This morning, when we were out in a meeting, ducks flew overhead. And it’s also the city — it’s a state park. So the city up keeps all of the trails. And that was not the case at our first location. So we are grateful for that. And it’s fun to kind of be in a public space that is shared, because we’re more in the community.
So it worked out. We love it here. We play this fun game of, like, what would we do if we had five million dollars? What would we do for our friends? And I, like, and I’m like, well, we could — I don’t know… Some very adult thing about having a commercial building.
And the kids are like, no. And I was like why, and they said we love it because it feels like a home. So there’s a couple of good things that come out of it. Being a home school. I think that when you initially come to tour it and it freaks you out, that it is a home, that’s a good indication that a lot of other things might freak you out. This might not be the right space for you. And it provides lots of comfort.
So. Yeah, and I do I have my room, which I call my apartment, which is in the back. It’s a rather large house, so I share space back there and it works for me.
Abby
Well, so to ask an outside question first, how did your conversations and facilitation change when suddenly your space opened up to this giant wonderful area full of deer and also rattlesnakes? ‘Cause you have tinies, too, right?
Amber
Uh huh. Yeah, we have tinies. We — our youngest is four, but we have, I mean, toddlers here.
So this year we do not have that program, but we have — Even our first location was outdoors.
It was in a concrete building. So it was very outdoors.
But I can still speak to the outdoors. And how I facilitate that. It’s one of my favorite things is just walking with no objection — er, intention. And when we’re just moving, I think that that’s… When I was thinking on, like, what, what does being a facilitator means to me or when do I feel like I’m facilitating… And it’s very compartmentalized to me. But when I’m thinking of like, when it feels right and I just feel aligned,
it would always be when we’re outside and just talking. I think a lot of what it means to be a human to me happens when you’re together outside. I like facilitating really tiny humans and young humans and walking because I think it’s… You learn a lot about how to hold space for each other when you’re feeling big feelings and you’re feeling hurt and scared and you’re learning how to take risks. And so I think, yeah, and learning how to be a friend.
I get to observe, like, what does it mean to be a sensitive person and not fix someone’s problem really fast, but to still show up for people? And then I get to see really tiny humans doing that. And so, yeah, that’s when I really feel, like, that’s facilitation. I feel a lot of hope in humanity in those moments. I think the outdoors just opens that up.
Abby
Do the kids have particular places outside that they gravitate to?
Amber
Yeah.
Yeah. And so our park, if I can describe it… So we have a backyard. It’s probably a half acre fenced in. And then right behind us is a meadow that is, we’ll say 20 acres. And it’s just a meadow and mowed, and so we have very natural boundaries, especially with ages, and we talk a lot about safety and how far you go away from an adult. And I will say that those fears, especially when parents bring them… I think kids are so good at knowing, you know, where they’re at. Like where– how good they feel about being away from you.
And so that isn’t something — I’ll just talk about boundaries and then I’ll get on to favorite spaces. But this always comes up when I’m like, yes, we have a park. And yes, they’re not always within eyesight.
So being outdoors gives you kind of that reverence of feeling like, OK, the world is bigger than me. And so tiny people usually don’t want to be away from the people that they feel like can protect them. And so that’s an ongoing conversation. So circling back. So we have the 20 acre meadow and then right past that, there is a really beautiful trail. It’s very foresty. We call that the dirt trail. And so. We’re always all together and age mixed, but we call our nature school, like, our three to seven year olds —
I think a lot of ALCs call that Roots. That’s kind of our age range. So that is their natural boundary without an adult. Favorite spots…That is… I think every one of them have a tree right now. And so, “I have to go talk to my tree. I need to check on my tree. Can I have your phone? I need to go take a picture of what my tree looks like today. Oh, my goodness. You have to see the way the sun is coming down on my tree.
There’s a cardinal in my tree.” So that’s that’s been a really special thing that’s been kind of ongoing. It’s not a new thing. It’s been a pretty anchored practice of, right at the forest edge they all feel, like, very protective of these trees and that they are their friends. OK, so that’s — and we have a creek right to the left of that. So that is the backyard. And then going into the park, some favorite spots are…. A bunch of, like,
11 to 14 year olds right now have been building a fort that’s probably about a 10 minute walk away. So that’s deep in the park and they’re going to let us know when it is ready to be toured. And there are a lot of people very excited about that. We have a couple of old forts. There’s fort one and fort two, fort three. The naming process has obviously gotten very in-depth. We have a climbing hill that we visit often.
We do that a lot. There is a — this is Oklahoma, so we have a lot of red dirt and — there is a place by one of the creek systems, a pretty large piece of land that is just red clay. So we call that Mars. And also it has a lot of craters. So we spend a lot of time at Mars. There is playground equipment, but we have not gone there during COVID. But it is there somewhere within the hundred acres. What else? There’s pavilions. There are — I mean, such are parks. But yes.
And there are trails. But those are some of our favorites. Climbing hill, our trees, the dirt trail, Mars.
Abby
Recently, we — Our pods, our outdoor groups were smaller through the cold months, and they’ve just started kind of coming back. So we’ve also just started learning and relearning, what does poison ivy look like? Here’s how to do a tick check.
Amber
Yes.
Abby
I don’t actually know what creatures you have or what plants, and like… What does that all sound like for you?
Amber
So we had a… These are talks that we revisited, as we do, especially this week. Last week was a big tick safety week. So, we were like… let’s get parents involved and reiterate at home and let’s not talk about this too little, let’s make it a big talk. So we got lots of pictures and we watched a class about tick safety and we have a new app tracking tick locations. And, and we have Copperheads. So we had a look at all of the snakes that look like Copperheads this week and compared them.
And said, like, let’s remember to walk heel-toe and watching our feet walk, especially in the off-trail places. Yeah, we have snakes. And that’s a big one. And ticks. We had some of our biggest breezes ever this year. And the ticks are not gone at all.
Abby
Yes, and people are like, it’s great, it’s so warm so early, and I was like, oh no. Like the mosquitoes just showed up…
Amber
It brings up, too, not the actual talking of ticks, but it brings up a lot of also talks on how the brain works. Because it’s like, isn’t that fascinating how we’re all itchy because we’re talking about ticks and so. Yeah. And good. A little neuroscience talk, psychology talk, like… That’s how powerful this thing is.
Abby
Oh no. Absolutely. Yeah, we had that with the poison ivy yesterday. Suddenly, everyone is itchy. Well, can I ask about inside boundaries, like, how do you… How do you set your boundaries for the kids being in your home?
Amber
Oh, yeah. So. I’ve always been really intentional to never call this my home. And I like… Even if people are like, “Amber, do you have scissors?” I’m like, “Do I have scissors or does the school have scissors?”
So I always… I think I felt… It all happened really fast, because we got Rivers and Roads fast. To balance…
We actually rented our first year. And so, like, were talking to these people and said we want to run a school out of this home and we want to rent it. And — because it wasn’t for sale. I mean, it wasn’t for rent, it was for sale. But we were not in a financial place to buy at that point in time. So they were most comfortable with someone living there. And so I uprooted. So I felt…It was always important to me to be like, no, I have a house and it’s, like, my room.
And it’s a very large size. It’s about the size of what my apartment was before. So that wasn’t that hard of an adjustment. I have a closet and a bathroom. But yeah, it was always important to me, you know, that this is the school and I, like, have a house that’s separate. But, yeah, I never wanted that kind of hierarchy of like, this is my house. That made me uncomfortable.
Abby
Is it…I guess if it has, if there’s a separate apartment space that helps. People here have mentioned having a space that’s both, like, a residence and a school, and for me, I’m always like… It was work to, you know, be like, actually when we’re running an evening event, I need everyone to leave on time because I need to shift back out of working. Because I’m working right now, as fun as this is.
Amber
Right. That’s where I — I think I’ve kind of leaned into it in times past. Just like, OK, so this is just like a really great opportunity for me to actually vocalize boundaries. Because, yeah, that’s a great skill and something to practice. Oh, no, I do need everyone out at this time. Or if it is something that’s bothering me, just handle it then. That’s it. That’s fine. But I think it’s, I mean, it’s really only been a plus for both myself personally and the school. On the financial side and just having someone here
makes it easier. Ask me next year, and that could be a different answer.
Abby
So that’s awesome, though, that it’s been working out. I see a lot of pictures on your amazing social media of the indoor offerings that you guys have going inside.
Amber
Like personally or as a school?
Abby
Oh, I mean, both?
Amber
OK, what if I say… I can talk to today. We have been really into 3D printing. We’ve got a 3D printer, which has been fun.
We are now into printing things and now painting small details onto them. And so seeing this whole practice evolve — because it’s not something that just gets off the ground. There’s a lot of maintenance that goes into a 3D printer. They do not just work on accident. So it’s that’s been really fun. I didn’t know that I would enjoy the research about all the little parts as much as I have, but I’ve enjoyed facilitating the 3D printer. If you are like, hey, I would like some challenges in my life,
you should absolutely get a 3D printer for anyone looking for that. But I have enjoyed it. What else did we do today? I’ll just tell you about today and go backwards. We went to a thrift store. We’re trying to put together a mud kitchen, but we’re talking inside… Our science experiments went down today, and making YouTube videos for that. Really in our last six weeks we have trying to balance out, like, how many offerings are currently happening and how much is just us enjoying the last part of the year. Which is in contrast to being in public school or even progressive education.
I think that is something that I’m really noticing about what is so powerful about unschooling and self-directed. Like, this end of the year time, like, there is no urgency going. There is no, like, conveyor belt kickoff feeling of like, “Well, you tested. So, I mean, now you can have free time, because it doesn’t matter anymore.” So it’s like, for instance, like, a nine year old, an eight year old child looked at me.
And was like, “Hey I want to learn cursive today. Can we get something for that?” And I was like, Yeah. And that kind of move towards — it’s the end of the year, like… The old feelings… Like this is our relax time. But they — most of the students we have have always done self-directed learning. And so I’m learning from them like, no, it really is lifelong. And the way they feel it and see it is, like… That’s how they’re experiencing the world.
That is a sidebar. You’re asking me about inside offerings. But that was just a note as I am unwinding from what happened today, because it happened today. I do a lot of creative writing workshops. I enjoy sitting and writing and telling stories. I enjoy scribing for people as they are learning how to be independent writers and just would like their stories told. I love facilitating a book club. I’m really into movement. We got a woodshop.
We have power tools, so we enjoy doing that. I do a lot of cooking classes. You know, just whatever is coming at me, I really love a spontaneous moment. I love “What’s going on today? I’d like to do that.” Those are the things that I hold a lot of space for. It’s my personal facilitation. But yeah, I guess I said, what does the whole school do? And I am not the person to talk to about that.
Social media is a good check of what is the whole school doing. We post schedules there sometimes, too.
Abby
Because you mentioned doing writing workshops and I notice your kids do a lot of — I don’t know whether they do them with you, but — like, a lot of storytelling. Content producing, whether it’s brochures or short films or a podcast.
And I’m wondering about, like, facilitating them learning, like, honing their skills as storytellers. And what that experience is like for you. And if there’s any tricks or tips you have for people who are new to that.
Amber
Yeah, that’s a great question. Storytelling is very important to me, so I guess that is something that I modeled… Not with the intention of, like, I’m going to model this so other people do it. But I think that it just is natural to me and a reverent practice and something I just enjoy.
So, yes, I can talk on what we do… Like just, I can speak on creative writing specifically and then we could talk about, like, podcasting and YouTube videos. Go that way. So creative writing we do all the time, because if someone has a moment, I ask, do you want to tell me a story? And humans love telling their stories. I try to give tips to our parent community on this. A lot of like “please don’t downplay telling stories to your children about a random time when you were 11.”
Like, they grasp on to these things. Like, they’ll come tell me, did you know my parents did this? And like, they want something like — they — they are… They’re so impressed with simplicity. And so that’s, like, a magic that I try to really capture and try not to diminish it. Like, well, that’s not academic. So I think these — these skills are really easy within self directed spaces because they’re very obvious and they’re very natural.
So as long as we’re not doing weird things to it, it just is a constant creative process. Like if they asked me, like, what is that? This one, the comma on the top or the bottom? And I’m like, oh, you mean apostrophe or comma. And so like, I’m happy to give grammar tips as they come. And we learn a lot about grammar that way, but that’s never the intention. So I’m just down for the flow of storytelling.
We do storytelling prompts. We listen to a podcast called “What If World.” That’s a lot of starters. And so sometimes we’ll do what they did that week or we’ll just come up with our own. What if… That’s the “what if we had five million dollars?” So we’ll just we start our morning meetings with a lot of just “Who has a story to tell? Is that a real one or not? Or will we find out as it goes?”
Yeah, I model, I think, the actual act of writing a lot with pen and paper.
I am happy to assist people to learn how to be independent with audio recordings and get them the technology to do voice to text. I think that we do weird things with writing as adults. And we don’t… We maybe have forgotten the complexity that is like let me think about holding this pencil the right way and moving it in all the right directions and be creative and not stop and not get frustrated. So I try to get good read on where you are at and help in the places that might block you and just let you be able to tell your stories.
So that’s, like, creative writing. And then when you see we do do a lot of, like, stop motion, YouTube, podcasting… Just like, make things… A lot of that is Taryn, because she is a great wizard with technology. But that also comes mainly from just the cycle of ALC and the learning flow of, like, creation and sharing. And so what does that look like for you? It does not have to be a blog every week, but like, let’s practice this as an art and a lifestyle.
And like, that can just be you telling me something. Especially as people are navigating the World Wide Web, there’s a lot of people that don’t consent to putting their work out on the Internet. And I completely understand that and feel that that is never why we are creating or making these things. But we do put an emphasis on “let’s share something that’s created,” and what have you done…and that it can look like anything. I think we, at the beginning of Rivers and Roads, were like, OK….Because if you have started any type of school — ALC, self-directed, or progressive — you know that first year is just like, hold on tight.
Well, at least from my experience. So you kind of just are like, OK, we’re doing this. And that’s what I thought the beauty of joining the network was; it’s like, we were like, standing on the shoulders of so much, like, labor of love and so many people that came before us. You just felt way more grounded in something. Like, I can never be grateful enough for that. But I think within that was still, like, what have I done with my life?
Can I do this? Imposter syndrome thing. OK, I read that we do blog posts on Fridays at ALCs, so we would, like, “OK, everyone we’re blogging!” Like, “It’s Friday so we’re blogging!” And so there was a lot of anxiety around that, and there was a lot of, like, force. And it was a lot of pushback, and so I think throughout that, I was like, this is weird, you’re making this weird. No, pause for a second. You’re really attached to this one statement.
So what is it? I think we’ve all sat with that now and co-created that together… What does it mean to share? And what does it mean to, yes, reflect? Yes. So I think a lot of that has just come through that journey.
Abby
Yeah, that’s such a kind of classic new facilitator learning, right, is to be like, “Oh, it’s actually not about the tool. What is it supposed to do? All right, what is the path of ease and fulfillment that does that?” And maybe you throw the tool out.
You mentioned progressive school. Can you talk a little bit about your journey to self-directed and starting a center and all that?
Amber
Yeah, so we had… I have always known that the education system didn’t work for who I am as a person. I grew up with, like, I went to public school, but the way I was raised was very socially unschooled. Like I was very respected. I, like, my voice genuinely mattered. So I have like… Which is hard to also be a kid that has been told like, no, you don’t get to — like, people have to treat you like a human. And then you go to public school and you’re like, “You’re being rude.
You can’t talk to kids like that.” So I had a lot of practice and discourse of arguing with teachers in my life. So I — but I went to college and back and forth. I was trying to avoid education for a lot of reasons. I was pre-law most of the time, but then I finish and I have a degree in education and there is a progressive school in my area. Then I also did a little stint with the Peace Corps, which is another conversation.
Just a whole thing. Yes, it’s — we could really unload and unpack that. But, but anyway, so I come back and I was back at my progressive school and — which was really a privilege, because I’d been there, I’d worked there on and off from the time I was 19. So I kind of did really early adulthood there and got to see — they were in their fourth year when I started — so I’d seen, like, how to grow a school and make a school and the problems and what can happen fast if you aren’t grounded in something and how the school can change rapidly because of money and pressure.
And so I just experienced a lot of that. But as we were having some problems and there was a group of people that were like, OK, what are we? Because that’s a really big problem, I think, in progressive schools is it’s a very buzz word-y. And I think for me as a human, I know I need like substance. I need like… You say, you’re just saying the word Montessori and you’re saying the word Reggio Emilia and you’re saying it’s student led, but it isn’t.
And you’re saying it’s Democratic. But like, I mean, you’re just letting them vote in the name of, like, voting. To say, like, we did this and we’re just trying to check all the boxes and keep everyone happy. So there was a group of people, like, really dedicated to like, OK, there’s other people in the world doing things. Like, let’s really hone in on who we are, what we are. And so we actually went to AERO conference.
And that is like when I first like… Let me back up. We did a book club as a staff over a Peter Gray book. There is a quote that he said that was like, progressive schooling is more harmful because it is saying to kids, you’re free and you have a say, but it’s actually more manipulative at the end of the day because that isn’t true. And I mean, I did the ego thing that a lot of people do. Like, oh, my gosh, this guy doesn’t know me. Like, I would never.
And I was so offended, but it stuck with me. But I definitely was defensive. And I was like, does he not know how good I am with kids? You know, all the annoying things. How many hours have I put into this? How… But anyway, so there was kind of, like, the quote. And through him, we went to the AERO conference and that’s when I learned about ALCs, because there were a group of people there. It was in…
Seattle? It was in Portland. And I met people there and just started taking it all in. And I was like, OK, our school is going to do this. Like, we’re going to make it happen. And it wasn’t. And that’s OK, too. But at the time, I actually started doing ALC tools in my second and third grade classrooms. Because that is the way that we were mixed-age was two grades. But. I started doing that, but I also had too much of the “right information” to me. Like my truths were revealed within unschooling and self direction, and what I knew was right and important. And so, for instance, there was a student of mine who was… This is the second group. So like, a seven year old filling notebooks full of comics. Like I’m not being dramatic: notebooks full. And I’m like, oh, my goodness, this is amazing. Like, he is like… so creative and I’m so proud.
And, and there was a couple of things. And this isn’t the only thing, but there was a moment where I was like, we have to do math. Like we just have to, because that’s the way the school runs. And. He looks at me like, “but I can’t stop.” But I’m in my mind, he has to. Like literally it’s my job to make him stop what he’s doing. And I was like… And I said these words, and he’s beautiful and precious, and he’s looking at me.
And I said, “I need you to do this for me, please.” And like, I saw him, like, sacrifice what he was doing because of our relationship. And it clicked to me, “Oh, this is really gross.” Like, I have spent a lot of time building a very strong relationship with this person so that he can be manipulated by me.
And so I felt at that time that a lot of my
effort was going into making genuine relationships, but so that I could have power over their choices. And it was very scary to see. I would never want to, like, make light of the situation, but like, those types of like…blurring the lines of what is consent and what is adults manipulating you in their relationships with you…I’m breaking trust with you and, like, you genuinely trust me. So you’re doing this, but I don’t believe it’s the right thing. You just have to do it and you have to listen to me.
And then also that person’s mom was like “he didn’t put a period at the end of one of his many comics, and so, like, he doesn’t even know grammer.” And I was like, oh, this isn’t for me.
But Taryn — and Taryn is the other co-founder co-director — she also worked at that school. We were in the book club together. And so just the accumulation…and it was time for us to leave. It was — we – yeah. It was time. We left and it was good. And we have been doing this together. And so I think that speaks enough on my big things, on like why I can’t do progressive education.
I would prefer to do public education because of that. My experience with like — I do not want to make light of the word grooming, but — it really feels like it’s very manipulative. The kids are very told that they have freedom and that they have autonomy. And I spent a lot of time building a lot of trust just to use it to enforce things. So that was my experience.
Abby
How did you and Taryn pick each other to do the new thing with?
Amber
Yeah, I…There’s… Yeah, I don’t think we picked each other. I was just meant to be. We have always been able to work really well together. She had — a part of her position at her old school was, like, floating through the classrooms. And we just we have — we are lucky to have, like, unspoken times. Like we don’t really have to communicate that much to each other. It’s like a natural thing. So.
And she just was sharing a lot of the same problems and concerns. And there was other things at play as far as, like, the adult dynamics go. So that kind of, you know, bonds people. And she was in the same book club. She read the same quote. It was her truth as well. Now we… And so, yeah, I don’t think it was a choice. I think we were supposed to do this. So here we are.
Abby
Are there kind of deschooling moments that are, that you remember poignantly from your first year?
Amber
Oh, yeah. I think the most schooley was, though, how like… From our old school, I think it’s how the adults that work at schools are… I don’t want to say treated, but …Maybe I’ll just go with treated. And that was a lot of deschooling that we had to do, I think, as far as like hustle and grind. Like breaking those things that I don’t agree with, but… We all love to say how busy we are.
I mean, I… At our old school, we had– we had two meetings after school for school staff a week, that would both go until six thirty, where we just got to make all the choices for the kids. But it was long hours. I was available at all times on my phone and you could call me at any time with any complaint or anything that you thought I was doing wrong or poorly and I was having to field that. And you just have to keep people really happy, especially in private schools, because… And it’s also… Yeah, it’s a lot about… The progressive schools also have a different outlook than I agree on regarding socioeconomic situations and accessibility.
And so just a different, different demographic of people. However, some of that did come to our new school and I was just unable… I knew things were wrong, but I wasn’t able to be like, no, I’m a human, too. And I’m a part of this community, too, and I have boundaries. And you cannot call me at 10:00 at night because you’ve just in this moment decided that you ruined your child’s life and you would like to talk it out with me. Now, I did a lot of that for the first year. Like, I did a lot of people pleasing.
I did a lot of placating in the name of like, I’m afraid they’re going to pull their kids. I think I had to deschool from a lot of, like, what is the role of how society teaches teachers, treats teachers. Just because it’s a role that’s usually seen as one that’s lesser and a very labor force that is not valued, and so I wanted to make sure that that’s not how the kids here were seeing us treated. But some of the– most of the difficult things just came from figuring out, like, how do we value educators?
How do we treat them? How do we communicate to them? I’m not an employee of yours, and some of your problems I don’t agree with. That first year I dropped a lot of things to people please a lot. And so that was mainly my deschooling was like, what does it mean to be an educator in a self directed space? And. Yeah. Yeah, but as far as the academic things that — none of… I think having an education background makes it really easy for me, because it’s so obvious. I never have…
That’s never been a worry or concern of mine that much. Just because if you fully allow a child and you really do it and you’re not just halfway saying that you do it, but you really let them just be and let them do this… That’s easy. When the problems come, it’s like, OK, I’m going to self direction, but we’re going to do this and this and I’m going to, like, the whole time be miserable and terrified. And I am scared. Like… That’s when your kids shut down.
And that’s a different thing. That’s not getting an education. That’s more of a, this might not be right for your family. So I think that’s where I, like, deschooled the most, is like having a lot of peace with, like, well, that’s OK. And so, like, releasing the saviorism that comes with just like, that I needed to deschool from, of like, you actually don’t have to do this for people. Because that’s not what they’re asking for either.
So I was doing a lot of, like, emotional labor that people weren’t even explicitly asking for. But I just felt, like, leftover of what I think and was taught educators should do, which is I hold everyone’s hand and carry all their weight and be everything for them. So yeah, but if you want to talk on the academic part, that was easy just because…The college I went to is a liberal arts school. So they had a pretty progressive education program.
So I had a lot of experience with “how do humans actually learn?” None of the schooling I did was actually applicable to anything teaching-wise. And that was, like, always the sad part about my classes is we would learn so many great philosophies and, like, Hands-On ways to learn or to facilitate learning. I learned so much at my school about how to facilitate learning. And then they’ll be like, but you can actually do this in your school. And like, oh, I’m really sorry.
Even the best intentioned teachers, like, you’re not going to have time to do this, but this is the right way. But they’re going to keep you so busy jumping through hoops, you’ll be too exhausted to do this. But if you want to look at how do humans actually learn, it’s this. So that, that was a really natural, easy transition for me. It was more just like how do I as an adult, like, go about making this the best school for kids and not the best school for adults.
Abby
Do you still, do you have other staff members right now? How many of you are there these days?
Amber
With covid, we only have Taryn and me here in person, so we cut our numbers. Opened half-way, to do a pod and we haven’t started fully going back. And things are…unfolding. But, yeah. We have had people still doing online offerings and things like that, but in person it’s just us.
Abby
Got it. OK, so when you’ve had — pre-covid, in the before times — when you are bringing new facilitators into your space and your and into your, like, partnership dynamic,
what– how do you facilitate that transition?
Amber
That’s a great question. We have a specific program called Wild Flowers, and that’s our, like, if you ever see, like, when babies are here, that’s them. We’re very mixed age. So that — when you have such little ones, that’s like a more full time role. What I’m doing is pretty obvious. And then, the bringing other people in, I think, has been just easier also because it has….
Well, one, they’ve all been parents, so like, usually they’re just working through like, what does it mean to be a parent and a facilitator? So that’s been most of it is. Like, just being able to separate, like, OK, we’re check in people if you are learning how to be a facilitator. So I think most of our dynamics have really just been focusing on, like, how do we help people that also have kids here?
But also something that has happened, because of covid, is I… One of my siblings is 16. And so he now goes here full time and he lives with me part time. And so I kindof can speak on those things now, too. But it’s… he’s doing unschooling full time and thriving. But, yeah, we get to live together part time now, which is very special. And I think it worked and was easy to blend just because Taryn and I are not parents.
And so we kind of…We balance. Because those are two different things. I was listening to Julia’s interview on your podcast and enjoyed that insight was like, yes, I feel this. Those are — that’s real talk.
Abby
Yeah. It was so real. And it’s interesting from having only ever been on the other side.
Amber
Yeah. And yes, I, I now… I mean, no, partly… I mean, we’re still siblings, and so I think that’s different.
And I’ve also seen people, parents, come in here, and so I know, like, how I want to show up with someone that I have a really close relationship with in the community and making that work for everyone. And so I’ve been able to observe and witness and hopefully apply those things to myself.
Abby
As also a non-parent but someone who then has allo-parented or otherwise had young people in the space where I am your facilitator and also this person with this other relationship, I’ve learned when and how I have to watch myself.
And it’s usually like, yes, I’ll give you lunch money. Oh, wait, does that mean I have to give the whole class lunch money? Because that’s a lot. Have you had any experiences that you feel comfortable speaking to where you’re like, oh, which role am I in right now?
Amber
Oh yeah. I mean, I think we can go on food because that’s obviously a big one.
Yeah, it’s hard, but we have… We also didn’t take any new students in this year just because the times are so weird anyways.
So, I mean, you’ve lived it, you know, but… We didn’t want to… Like, some things were going to be different. And so we, we needed there to be a foundational relationship. But, yeah, I think just like having to explain that, like, yes, this is like a lot of– a lot of those things, like…It’s a lot of “I hear you” and especially with food… Like food, such a love language of mine. Like if I had unlimited food to make meals for everyone all the time, I would.
And so I do have to have those conversations of “I wish.” And that’s another thing of living here, too, about food… Those were hard boundaries for me. I would give all my food all the time. Like I love gifting people with meals. I love sharing snacks. It’s a big thing for me. So I guess like having him here, as well as having shared food here, is always just me working and communicating and also checking like, “wait, why does this make me feel guilty?”
Or like, “why am I feeling uncomfortable?” And I can explain this to them? Can they give me feedback on why are they actually feeling bad or am I turning something into guilt that they were just, like, it’s possibly just me? No, I literally just wish I could also be having that food and this is not me making it into something. So it’s really pretty natural.
I mean, I think something I try to be really aware of is, like, bickering that you have within a close relationship. And so, like, not wanting other people to be uncomfortable or like, can we pause on this and do it in space that’s just ours because we’re now making it, like, a whole community about two people. Something — because our school is called Rivers and Roads, a thing we say is like — we even do this with, like, sharing sound. If you’re taking up all the sound in the room, like you are the loud person today —
“Well, it’s not Ambers and Roads, it’s Rivers and Roads.” So you kind of use the language… And so I try to just, like, default to a little bit of humor where I’m like, oh, this is, like, a relationship thing that needs to be done in a different time. And so that’s kind of like an indicator like… Pause. We can circle back, but like, let’s not make this space or this time about healing our relationship. Unless it’s like, I’m your facilitator and you’re a student.
Amber
Yeah.
Abby
Thank you.
I love that, the humor…
Amber
Sometimes you just need to throw it out a little bit.
Abby
Yeah, well, and it’s like in the moments that are like, oh, I need to soften, especially when the energy actually wants to escalate and wants me to get harder right now. And it’s like, OK, how do I deliberately soften and soften in a way that makes that an appealing route for other people to potentially follow?
Amber
Yes, that is a wizardry to learn the bounds of that.
I’ve hurt people’s feelings by throwing out the humor when my intention was — yes, I would like to — I feel it escalating. But then they were like, you don’t care. So, yeah, luckily I’m just in a space where people can let me know and give me feedback. That’s a skill of mine. I can balance many relationships at a time. Especially when I’m given such honest feedback.
Abby
So you facilitate the ALF calls, and have been doing that for three years. Can you speak a little bit to the, like, how that’s different facilitating, right? It’s holding space for grown ups…
Amber
Yeah. So I guess it is different this year than it has been in previous years, and Mel and I were reflecting on that last week and we were saying like…
Well, I think I was working through, like, does this — does the call still have value? Does it still– is it’s still a good space that we’re holding? Because this year — and I love what it is — we get on and we’re like, what are you creating and what are you watching? And like, I mean, try not to talk too much, but there’s been a lot of it this year. And that’s healthy, too. But like sometimes I think we try to make it a little space where it’s like, OK, I would like to breathe for a minute and, like, what reality TV
have you been watching? What murders have you delved into with their documentaries? What have you made? Like what are you eating? Like… Very relationship building. And we do that with Jean as well. And so it’s just really been the three of us most of the year. So this week I was talking like, so does– does this thing still have value? And I was like, well, I mean, absolutely, because it’s us surviving. And I love surviving talking about TV, that is something I can do. Really good at that.
So but also, like, there — it’s not — As far as I’m aware, it’s… People aren’t starting a lot of projects right now, and rightfully so. I know that there were a couple of projects that started in the heat of this and honestly kudos to them. So much kudos, because I cannot imagine not already being established going through this. That’s big. But so, when there are a lot of starting projects that’s, like, where we usually hold like a lot of space for support. Because that’s like just what people want.
But so in the past — b.c. — I, I love holding space for, like, I love a good vent session. I’ve learned a lot about — recently, I’ve been watching this ted talker that is explaining that, like people label — gossip, like, and venting was labeled bad by design, and it’s all from the patriarchy. That’s like really rings true, because it’s really just people are trying to makes sense — it’s very much, like, reflecting on either something that they saw with their eyes and they would like to process it verbally and they don’t really need anything back, but they would just like to explore
how do I feel with this thing that I saw or felt? And so, yes, I enjoy really like experiencing the world with vent sessions. I’m happy to pop on and ask, like, what weird call did you get at ten thirty at night when someone decided they’d ruined their child’s life? Those are heavy times. The first year — this isn’t an Amber gets on and bashes the first year of school talk, but — Soon to be circling back to that. It is just…I’m happy to hold space to listen to people.
Just like, I would just really like to say that this was hard. Or like, this was like a big feeling. Or I also really enjoy holding for, like, what is the weirdest thing you saw today and what is the silliest thing that was said to you today? Or like, what question made your jaw drop or what did you have to research? So I love just hearing about what are people in the worlds doing differently. So I just open it. So it’s like… We are doing that this year.
And so the reflecting was kind of like a meta way of like, well, if we weren’t still holding this space and we weren’t still making this practice a thing, like it would dissolve. And so like — but there will be a time again when people are searching for that. So I don’t know, it just feels happy and good that we were able to, like, deepen our relationships with each other as facilitators and as friends. And it’s been really great and I’m happy to do it and also will be happy when people are seeking out more support or not.
Because I’m also down to talk with Jean and Mel about shows and painting and what food we’re eating. These are all topics I love.
Abby
Awesome. Early on, Mel and I would tell people when they were starting calls to like, oh, pick somebody you’re excited to have dinner with and just have your weekly dinner date. Because then if it turns into people showing up with questions like, sure, that’s a kind of productive. Right? And if no one shows up for three weeks, like, oh, my gosh, this person I love is also here, that’s also great.
And it always makes me happy to know those spaces exist. Like, as the network’s grown and I can’t check in with all of everyone I love, sometimes I worry about people having enough support and– and so knowing that those calls are kind of an ongoing thing like…Yeah.
These people I care about have each other. That’s really great.
Amber
And I was intimidated, I think, at the beginning, to do it and get on. Because I think when you first start the network as a whole feels bigger than you. That’s my experience. And so– but I knew that I wanted to contribute to something that I just consumed a lot from, like having a network and having a Starter Kit and having just like a network that was a real thing. Like, see, there are other schools, like, I didn’t make this up. It’s so valuable.
And I think… But you don’t have a lot of, like, extra to give all the time, and so I, I think for me it was like, OK, well, I’ll just get on a call and I’ll listen. Like, that was like the… I like… I can just show up and, like, that’s how I can support. So it has kind of transformed into something where I’m like, oh, these are people I’m in a relationship with and it feels very connected and good and right, especially in the time when all we could do was be online. It was nice that that practice was already there because that was such a disorienting feeling. And so there are still people and there still things, so, yeah… That was good.
Abby
So you mentioned AERO and the early years of the network and progressive ed world, in its own way, and a lot of my work in those spaces has been going like, “oh, wow, look at these white men talking and setting rules and… Who’s actually doing the labor? And whose stories are given value?” Looking at whose stories matter and that kind of stuff.
And a lot of my work has been trying to disrupt the pattern in SDE-land of continuing what default education does, of upholding white colonizer patriarchy. And that is also work I know you do locally and in your contribution to the bigger movement. So, curious if you could speak to any of what that’s looked like for you?
Amber
Yeah, I can, I can.
That’s been a lot of my deschooling, I guess. But I think about who I am as a person, who is Amber and like Rivers and Roads… That’s important to me, to learn how to deschool from my personal white saviorism and how do I show up in the world. And I mean, I think about how much space do I take. That’s something I try to be mindful of. I think I do try to just really hold our space and build our part of the world rather than being a really loud, continuous voice of like, “hey, I’m doing this thing” because I’m really aware that I am holding space for art and practice and a life that I am trying to heal and create, that other people have already been doing and do not have enough credit for it.
So I think like, my personal facilitation in life and the world is, I really just like focusing on doing what you’re doing and doing work here, so that the space is ready and able to amplify other voices. I think that — it definitely went into– in, like, newsletters I’m very mindful of who I am highlighting, as far as like articles or podcasts, because I think that is very important. I think I live in a very specific part of the USA where I get a lot of opportunities to just, like, have healthy discourse and talk about these things that people haven’t really had introduction to.
So I try to just stay in really, like, a healthy. Which is in a place where I’m not in reactive mode all the time. I think that’s something I’ve been trying to be intentional about, because I think when you start discussing and you realize, like what? What was I upholding? So am I like — my intentions have really hurt people. I think there’s a part where you’re angry and so you’re like — you see other people making choices and you are seeing that reflected in yourself.
And so you just go at their jugular. And so I think how I try to show up is really doing inner work to where I can healthily have — not lay down and be like “I’m having common ground with you” because I don’t think that is always healthiest, but — like, how can I show up in a place where I can amplify other voices in a way that’s a healthy discourse to where we can have healing?
Abby
I’m trying to remember whose… I’m a little fuzzy on the history of other parts of this territory, but I’m like — Oklahoma is unusual in that you have the ancestral Indigenous stewards and a bunch of other Indigenous peoples whose forced relocations were to parts of the area that you’re in, right?
Amber
Yeah.
Abby
I don’t actually know a lot about what that history means there today.
Amber
Yeah. And so I — and there’s a lot of sovereign land being handed back right now. And so there are — there’s — I actually grew up in an area where three of their tribe headquarters are. So I got, like, the privilege of being able to experience and witness some really beautiful culture and long-standing heritage and seeing people work really hard to preserve their language and how their experience with nature and animals and… how to make sure not to whitewash nature schooling.
And what does that mean, to be someone that forces their idea of, what is recycling, of what is eco friendly, and what is, like, “saving the earth?” So I think I was privileged enough to be able to witness a lot of that, to just also know when to speak and when to listen.
Abby
Thanks. Yeah, that’s a whole separate research thing that maybe I shouldn’t go on the record about until I’ve done more reading, but… I’m like, oh, does nature schooling have a colonizer programing problem the way Democratic ed has a white man problem? Like, where are they the same and how are they different?
Amber
Yeah, I mean, I was just talking on a support call about that. I think someone went off on a recycling thing and it’s like… We have to be really careful. There’s, like, way bigger issues going on, when we want to talk about what’s harming the earth, than somebody perfectly scrubbing out their yogurt cup. But those are the people that are like “No, I can save the Earth!” And so there’s… And the whole… I mean, I personally for myself eat plant-based,
but I know the — that those two things going hand in hand is very problematic. And how we speak on that and how we show up, and especially when it comes to Native and Indigenous people and trying to force that on other cultures when, like, that was never the problem. I mean, nature schooling goes hand in hand… I mean, I could definitely talk about that in terms of, like, the documentaries that we put forward and whose faces are shown.
And yeah, I mean, I don’t know. I don’t I always… I think that when I just want to really be here and be present and be at Rivers and Roads. And when I think about how do I show up online, I want to just be our social media showing what we’re doing just because, I mean, it is me and Taryn who are cis-het white women. And we aren’t — we didn’t make up any of this. And so I don’t want, like, “look at these…” like… We’ve never done… This is the first time I’ve ever gone on the record with anyone, just for this reason.
Like, okay I’ll talk with my friend Abby. But we’ve never…People have asked us to do newspaper articles, because they’re excited about what we’re doing. But I think that’s not how I want to show up in the world. I would rather like, send them to this class that I took or recommend them this book. And I think that that’s important. I don’t know. I think where I’m at right now is just, like, going into our space to make it so when other people start thinking about like, hey, I would like to do something different with my life, that this place is just available.
Abby
Yeah. I go back and forth. And I mean the podcast project is part of that, for me too, where I’m like, oh, as a white woman and settler and someone who’s moved a whole bunch, I’m like, oh where do I — like, should I just be quiet? And I did that for a long time. And what happened was white men with less awareness than me took all the air. And I was like, OK, maybe me being quiet is often the right thing, but I’m actually not sure.
Maybe not.
Amber
Absolutely. And in other times and seasons… Now I just know that’s just where I’m at.
Abby
Totally. To the fun question and kind of dovetailing off that, whose work have you loved and who has informed your facilitation? Or if there’s a particular resource or experiences you want to shout out…
Amber
I am such an Akilah Richard stan. Like, hard core, it’s maybe a problem. I use her course to as part of our entry level, like before you enroll, like, is ALC right for your family?
I love her book. I love all of her podcasts, like. Definitely, yeah. So I love Akilah. So what have I been reading lately? Oh. Octavia Butler. Which I know that you also love. I’m rereading Parable of the Sower for the third time because they came out with that new insert, if you’re aware. And so the third time was like…when it really clicked. So I’m doing that right now. I love a good science fiction story, and that’s how I imagine the world.
So I’m enjoying that. Who else do I love? That’s where I’m at right now. Oh, no, I have, like, a lot of kids work that I follow and love.
But yeah, those are most of my… I’m pretty into what they do.
Abby
Kids specifically around you and hanging out there?
Amber
Yeah. Yeah. So I’m deeply a stan of all of them and their work. Yeah. They’re sweet.
Abby
All right. Is there anything that you were hoping I would ask about and I didn’t?
Amber
I wrote down key words, just in case, like, I panicked, but I did not. Unless…
Abby
But what are your key words?
Amber
Well, I think that I’ve also been facilitating lately — when I was like, what does facilitating mean? How do I show up in the world outside of Rivers and Roads as a facilitator? And like, that was, like, a fun thing to like, OK, what is it? What’s the practice of facilitating? And I think to me, like, really neatthat’s holding space and, like, being in a healthy place to where I can hold stuff for you and I can help you.
But I also am myself, and I’m existing. But I just finished my doula certification, so we actually had to write a paper at the end of it of like, what will you do as practice? And I was able to just, like, parallel it all to how I facilitate self-direction. And I really enjoyed like that. I liked writing that paper, because it was really cool for me to make those connections of, like, OK, somebody is on a life journey, whether it is childhood or birth, and they would like some support. And they are able to claim how they would like support and I’m here to hold that space. And I want them to come out on the other side feeling empowered from their experience.
And I want them to come out feeling like they were in the most control as they could be. And they feel good about it. And they are now entering the next part, whether that be postpartum or early adulthood, feeling like I have the least amount of trauma from that as possible and now I feel ready to take on this new thing. I really like… Like that is facilitating me.
Like I’m not coming up within like my doula practice, like, with people that are giving birth, like, I’m not giving medical advice. I’m not coming up with any of this. I’m holding your hand here and we can talk about all of these things. And some people do this and some people do that. What do you think will work best for you? And I mean, that’s how I definitely facilitate any thing that you want to learn to want to talk about.
Like some people do this and some people do that. But you’re always doing this. What would you like? And I’m here to remind you that, oh, yeah, you had mentioned this. And I — and I just want to… Yeah. Something I’m pretty good at is staying grounded and calm. So both of those things go hand-in-hand. So I just I enjoyed writing on paper, like, what is facilitating.
Abby
Thank you. I love that you mentioned that and congratulations, that’s great news.
Amber
I think that’s why I couldn’t point to…when you asked what are you enjoying? Because all of the things that I’ve read or listened to lately is all doula work and decolonizing doula work.
Abby
I mean, who’s doing that? I want that list.
Amber
Yes, I just literally finished that like two days ago. It was a fun year-long class that I joined. Like, I should do a new life skills thing during a pandemic.
Abby
But wait, who’s doing the decolonizing work?
Amber
Can I send you a million links on Instagram? Yeah?
Abby
Yeah, great.
Amber
There’s a lot of good, good stuff there.
Abby
OK, ok, I will put that in the show notes.. Now that I know how. I’ve learned. Life skills. Yeah, there’s a part in — I think it’s in Emergent Strategy, and adrienne maree brown talks about a it and — it’s funny because I’ve been mostly reading and following death doulas, like Alua [Arthur], and I forget her business name [Going with Grace] but she’s amazing. But the the line was like, engage tension, don’t indulge drama. And then — it is Emergent Strategy — and she, like, names that as wisdom that she transfers into her facilitation practice with other people. Or they — I have to double check what adrienne’s pronouns are these days. Yeah, and I was just like, oh, my gosh, that’s — that’s it, right?
Amber
Yeah.
I’m recalling right now. I purchased two copies of Emergent Strategy and both of them have been borrowed and not returned. So I was like, I would like to go reference this or, you know, I guess the third copy’s due soon.
Abby
Yeah, well, if you have any other doula, one liners like that that come to you and you’re like, oh, this works, let me know. And it was lovely to get to talk to you. Thank you so much for doing this.
Amber
I hope I was able to answer things in a way that is helpful.
Abby
You’re great. I appreciate…There’s a lightness that you carry things with, even when it’s big feelings and intense stuff, there’s always an underlying lightness that I really admire and appreciate. So it’s always nice getting to check in and hear about your world would be like, all right, yeah.
Amber
Oh, I appreciate that. Thank you. I like showing up in the world like that. It’s an important skill when it comes to being with kids as well. So, yeah.
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