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Hi, it’s Abby Oulton, welcome to the second episode of Holding Unfolding, a podcast about facilitation. I’m not going to take too much time before we jump into the interview, but there are a couple of notes that I just wanted to give you before we jump in. So, there’s a point in the interview where Ryan talks about Minecraft being used for urban planning. And I was Googling that project, and actually, it’s super cool. The UN had a program where they were working on redesigning, like, urban planning projects, and they invited community members to interact with a Minecraft simulation of the plans and used that as a way of making it accessible for community members to give input and get involved.
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I don’t actually know where that project led or, like, how much community members’ inputs translated to design changes, but it’s a cool idea and a cool use of the technology.
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The other cool Minecraft thing that I found related to urban planning was folks using Minecraft to test AI that were supposed to perform urban planning related tasks. And I have kind of complicated feelings about AI. We’re not going to get into it here. But if you are interested in learning more about why I might be suspicious about letting AI design our cities, check out Safiya Noble’s book Algorithms of Oppression, and Cathy O’Neil’s Weapons of Math Destruction, as well as the Algorithmic Justice League and Data Feminism and the rad documentary that I think is on Netflix right now called Coded Bias.
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There is a point where Ry will talk about risky play versus dangerous play, and I want to share that that framework of risks versus hazards came to our community through the playwork community. Playwork as in the folks, the adults who steward adventure playgrounds, junkyard playgrounds. And the basic idea is that risky things are dangers that we are aware of and practice managing and negotiating. And that hazards are dangers we’re not aware of and not equipped to be managing and handling.
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And so, you know, if I’m rock-climbing with kids, that’s kind of risky, but it’s great fun and good for us. But if we’re rock-climbing in Harriman Park, just north of New York City, like, there’s timber rattlers and a timber rattler hiding in the rocks is a hazard unless I, you know, have a conversation with the kids before we go.
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And we’re like, all right, what are the plants and animals that we need to be super aware of to keep ourselves safe when we’re rock-climbing?
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And then we have the whole discussion about, you know, who else is around us and how to be rock-climbing in a way to minimize problematic interactions with them where they get hurt, where we get hurt. And so, that conversation turns the hazardous unknown into, like, a danger that’s known and can be managed, into a risk.
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And so that’s a part of facilitation. There’s a part where he– he mentions the Starter Kit, which is a document from the Agile Learning Centers Network.
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And it’s an open source document that’s meant to be a kind of resource guide for folks looking at starting learning centers. Most of the content is Agile Learning Center specific but also fairly transferable. So if you are doing self directed education stuff and looking to start doing it in a more collaborative way, to start community building in some kind of way, that resource is free at agilelearningcenters.org.
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And I’m actually not going to put the link in the show notes. I say in the episode that I will, but the current rewrite is still in its first draft, and it still has to get polished and then translated. And there’s some other stuff we have to do. So that’ll be on the website… When it’s done, it’s all done, I’ll definitely post an update either in whatever podcast episode aligns with it or, you know, on social media.
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But that’s– that’s the resource he’s referring to. And then there are some retreats at the end. He mentions “ALF Summers” and “Emerging Leader Labs,” I think, is the other. Those don’t really– They’re not a thing right now.
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So you don’t need more information on those other than to know not to get hung up on them. He mentions an “archetypes” exercise, as well as an exercise called “ZEGG,” and I’m not going to put a link to either of those in the notes. The archetypes exercise is– there’s a bunch of different versions. It is similar to any other schema for understanding different kinds of personality types and value systems and work styles. You know, am I someone who’s going to prioritize efficiency today or am I someone who doesn’t care that we’re running late because we’re still missing information,
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and I need all the– the pieces of information? You know, with those kinds of games and frameworks, they can be really helpful for taking conflicts that come out of those differences in communication and work styles and depersonalizing them and helping us figure out how to leverage our differences in ways where we can best be supporting our collaboration and also talk through any tension or conflict that does come up. Like, “Hey, I know you’re stressed out, because we were supposed to be wrapping up in two minutes, but we’re still missing this whole other chapter of information.
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Can we schedule, like– I’ll feel– I need us to schedule a time to circle back and cover that.” So those frameworks can be useful.
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They also tend, specifically some of the archetypes ones, tend to be tied to U.S. and European white men from, like, the early mid nineteen hundreds, and they reinforce the same kinds of biological determinism and phrenology that…frankly– To circle back to my feelings about AI a little bit, like, you can’t tell how smart someone is or whether they’re going to quote-unquote “commit a crime: based on the shape of their forehead. Even if crime wasn’t a construct, it’s just like, that’s not how how humans work. We’re complex systems.
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So while there can be helpful things to using some of these like personality games and frameworks, it’s also really important to be careful and be mindful about which ones you’re using and how you’re using them.
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And ZEGG– I try to guess… I was like, “Oh, maybe that’s from Spain.” I went and looked it up, and it is European, is from intentional communities, but it seems like it came from a community that was in Portugal and then that community dissolved and ZEGG is now more affiliated with a community that’s in Germany. Folks in the intentional communities movement and on the Internet will know more than I do about that. But the gist there is that having clear communication and transparency processes — and deliberate practices for community members to, you know, get right with each other — can can be really important if you’ve got a community that’s trying to be long term sustainable.
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All right. That’s enough from me. Let’s get into the episode.
[00:08:18.600] – Abby
Right, sweet. Hello!
[00:08:19.860] – Ryan
Hi, Abby.
[00:08:23.640] – Abby
Do you want to open with an introduction? Just tell us your name, where you’re at, your pronouns….I mean, anything–
[00:08:36.270] – Ryan
Well, my name is Ryan Shollenberger and I am in Brooklyn, New York currently. And the ALC that I facilitate at is…uh…is in Manhattan. I use he/him pronouns.
[00:08:55.740] – Abby
And what do you– so you’re a facilitator at Agile Learning Center in Harlem with me, and who are you in the world?
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What do you do?
[00:09:14.460] – Ryan
Who am I in the world? I am a facilitator. And we were chatting before this. And I think I’m glad we did because I might have answered this question differently before. But you kind of helped me realize that even when I’m not in school, I’m still, you know, facilitating and practicing and getting better at those skills. And so, you know, even when I’m not working, technically, I’m often working in facilitating. So I think, like, maybe 80 percent of the time now that’s what I am.
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The other 20 percent. I’m like, you know, probably spending time with my cat or working out so. So that’s who I am at the moment.
[00:09:59.650] – Abby
Well, shout out your cat parent and plant parent skills.
[00:10:07.630] – Ryan
I’ve been getting really good at those both since spending more time at home in the last year.
[00:10:12.570] – Abby
I’m sure they appreciate it and are flourishing. So what are some of the processes and happenings that you facilitate?
[00:10:24.310] – Ryan
Well, so in the most official capacity, I’m a facilitator at ALC, like– like you said. And so that’s, you know, facilitating with children at a school that obviously looks very different from a traditional school. And thus I think that’s why it is facilitating, not teaching at ALC. It’s making space. It’s making space for kids to to learn. It’s making space for kids to take responsibility for their choices and to make their own decisions and to help them learn how to do that effectively
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and with grace. So that’s– that’s kind of my main facilitation gig, but then I also, you know, in the past year have gotten into some housing rights stuff through my own building. I have been facilitating our Tenants Union, which is trying to get protection with the loft board in New York City. Which is a really important process, you know, and one that represents, like, actual sustainable housing in the city, which is hard to find, as you know.
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So I’ve actually really enjoyed facilitating that group. And I think it’s given me practice at working with adults, who I tend to have to work harder to work better with. So, yeah, that’s been that’s been pretty big in my life this past year. And then also, you know– This isn’t as much facilitating. It’s probably more towards traditional coaching. But– I have some clients that I work with in a, like, a training capacity. We do, like, fitness stuff.
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So, but… My style is probably closer to facilitating than– than telling what to do, for most people.
[00:12:17.240] – Abby
Well, yeah. Um… I mostly want to ask about kids, but just real quick– because, you started the tenants union, right? You like…?
[00:12:26.750] – Ryan
Yeah, there was a– there was a small group of, of my neighbors and I who started it. So maybe like four or five of us.
[00:12:36.420] – Abby
I’m curious about how facilitating the, like, inception of that has like… How did that go and how has that– how was that work different from what you’re doing now, facilitating the ongoing maintenance of that body?
[00:12:57.400] – Ryan
That’s a good question. I think, interestingly, like in the beginning, it was kind of like the first year of ALC in that we started with this really small core group of people that we felt, like, really great about.
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And we were just like, well, this is what it is. If this is the whole Tenants Union, if this is the whole school, then that’s great. We’re just going to, like, do it like this. But then, you know, just like what happened with the ALC, you know, more of my neighbors heard about it and they became interested. And, you know, in the beginning, a lot of the facilitation process was me meeting with people and having one-on-ones, explaining what we had learned thus far, what we were trying to still learn, and sort of what our goals and outcomes, you know, were going to be.
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So that was… And that took a lot of time. That took a lot of my time in the spring and summer of of 2020.
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But, you know, much like the work we had to do with the school and, like, expanding it and with enrollment, that allowed us to grow the group to a size that I never thought would exist. And now I think the challenge is more managing people’s expectations and personalities and emotions. And I don’t know if managing is the best word, but just trying to, like, you know, trying to consider consider all those things and then, knowing that, allow the group to function better to get what it wants.
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So I guess it is– managing maybe is the right word.
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Yeah, it’s a– Because you referenced the early years of the school, you want to talk about facilitating that project? That was a transformation, right, because you had other stuff to work through? But…
[00:14:44.440] – Ryan
Yeah, I mean…You know, I don’t know if the people listening are going to know the history of ALC necessarily. But, you know, it wasn’t a thing that started out of nothing, like most things. It kind of grew out of another school that shared similar philosophical underpinnings. And, you know, there were some families from that school that still wanted something similar but– but better and that suited what their kids needed. And that’s– that’s kind of how ALC started.
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And, you know…The question was like, how was that? Like how was it facilitating that at that point?
[00:15:25.270] – Abby
Yeah, what what was it like for you facilitating that transformation process, or your role in facilitating that?
[00:15:35.000] – Ryan
Yeah, it really was a transformation, I mean, for myself, as much as, you know, for the school itself. I mean, I had just been teaching in public school and, you know, without going into that too much, it didn’t– it wasn’t an optimal experience for me.
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I learned a lot of things. But as you know, and I’ve shared many times before, it was– it was just not– not for me. And so I had these ideas about what I, like, what I thought an effective teacher was. And then later, what an effective facilitator was. And a lot of the first year of the school was me, actually, figuring that stuff out. Was taking these, like, ideas that I had of how to, for myself, like, act differently, be less of a teacher and be more of a facilitator. And so, you know, I think the fact that the first year we started with six kids was very good, because it was a small group. I could get to know the kids very, very well and then kind of see this group of six kids needs, like, this thing.
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And they need, like, this much outdoor time and this many, like, you know, hours of sort of more academic stuff a week. And it– and I think like– I’m getting to a point here. And one of the things that I started to learn how to do, that maybe is more predetermined for you in traditional schools, is how to budget my time and how to, like, effectively give myself and give my time to as many kids as possible. And I think part of that — and this is probably getting into another another thing here, but — it’s, like, just knowing, OK, there may be this kid who just needs you for, like, one or two hours a week.
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You know, maybe they’re, like, they’re going to be in other offerings or they’ve got projects that they’re just going to be occupied with, and they maybe just need you to take them to lunch on a Thursday. Or, like, to do this one game that three other kids want to play on a Tuesday morning. So I don’t know why that’s where I went, but that was definitely a big thing, in hindsight, that the first year was about, and that I– that I think was something I learned and focused on.
[00:17:54.110] – Abby
Yeah, that’s definitely one of the skills, like, in facilitating both for a community and with the way we do, in self-directed spaces. It’s like, OK, everyone’s got their different needs. And if– since relationship building is going to be the slowest and the most important work, it’s like…What– How do you build and be maintaining all these different relationships? Do you feel… OK, so you talked a little bit about how your facilitation
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has evolved. Do you have any reflections on how it’s evolved in the past, like, two years? Because we’re recording in pandemic times, but we’re recording having now been in pandemic times for a minute.
[00:18:47.740] – Ryan
Yeah, I mean, you know, it’s hard for me to not think of that question and separate, like, how did my facilitation change two years ago versus a year ago? Because obviously our environment and what was required of us to be effective facilitators changed.
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But there’s, like, things that– that are relevant across both, like, facilitating over Zoom and in person. So. Uh. I think more recently, honestly, one of the things that I’ve had to learn how to do is set more effective boundaries for myself and, like, what– what I am– what I am, like, offering versus what is possible versus what is optimal for kids. So, you know, maybe sometimes that looks like me– like not doing a thing for a kid, or not making something easier for them.
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And maybe that’s not even necessarily around boundaries, but it’s just, like, you know, there’s this idea that sometimes when you struggle to do something, right, it’s like you appreciate it more. Or you can learn a skill more quickly or more effectively. And I think being a good facilitator is balancing that: how much you let a person struggle versus how much you help them, because if you just do everything for someone, it’s unlikely that they’re going to learn it or really care very much, if they’re letting you do it and then that’s happening.
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So, yeah, I think I have a tendency to be a person who does things more for others. Maybe you know about this. One of my love languages is acts of service. And so, you know, I think sometimes what I have to do is remind myself that there are situations where me doing more for a kid is actually doing less for them in the long run. And, yeah, that’s something that I definitely didn’t focus on as much in the first few years I was a facilitator. And maybe because I was getting clear on other more important stuff and things that were sort of building my foundation, and maybe now I’ve gotten to a point where I can or where I have been able to practice that other thing.
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So, yeah. Hopefully that’s an answer to that, and I think it does. I think it applies both to school on Zoom and, you know, school in person so….yeah.
[00:21:28.000] – Abby
Totally. My first example that comes to mind is not a Zoom one; it’s just like when is carrying someone’s lunchbox, like, you know, actually hindering their development and when is it like, “Yes, my friend, you’re very tired and those other things are very heavy. Like, I’ll carry your lunchbox.”
[00:21:45.760] – Ryan
Absolutely carrying stuff would have been my first example as well. It’s like… And you know when you’re in the position that we are and know these kids so well, it’s very clear where that line is. It’s very clear where you can say, “OK, you just– you don’t want to do this thing. And you see me as the adult in the situation. And so I’m the person that you are trying to get to do the thing for me.” Yeah.
[00:22:12.610] – Abby
Yeah.
[00:22:12.880] – Ryan
So maybe in the first or second year of the school, you’d see me walking through Central Park carrying three backpacks and, like, water bottles or something like that. But now I’ve gotten better. I think I’ve gotten better calibrating.
[00:22:25.930] – Abby
Yeah, I have seen this. I want to ask you about park trips, but first I’m wondering about… Because you facilitate the maths offerings…
[00:22:38.790] – Ryan
Yes.
[00:22:39.970] – Abby
What’s your experience been facilitating math?
[00:22:43.870] – Ryan
I mean, it’s been pretty great personally. It’s funny. I think this is one of the stories I tell a lot of times when people ask me what I… You know, people say, “Oh, you’re a teacher! What do you teach? What do you– what do you teach at your school?” And I always say math first and kind of laugh. Because math was always my weakest traditional subject in school. I didn’t enjoy it. I didn’t particularly get things the way they were taught.
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I don’t think I was “bad” at math in quotation marks. I know people say that a lot. But I was definitely not good at it enough to, like, care to work really hard to get better at it. In any event, you know, as you know, we had a volunteer math– math facilitator for the first two years, maybe two years of the school. And, you know, after that parent could no longer facilitate it anymore, I just sort of thought, well, I’m going to step in and do this.
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And it wasn’t necessarily out of necessity, but there were kids and-or families that still wanted there to be a math offering. And so I thought, right, I’ll do this. And, you know, one of my original intentions behind that was to, you know, practice math concepts on my own when kids were, you know, directly requiring my help. And so that kind of became this thing where we– we all worked through different content, usually on Khan Academy.
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And, you know, there’s definitely, like, special projects. Like when people are actually working on things in math that have some other, you know, greater meaning beyond just practicing problems– Like, for example, I’ll work on my fantasy baseball research a few weeks before my drafts every spring. But, you know, it’s a place we’re all working through math content at our own pace. And we’re– I’m there to help kids when they get stuck. And I was very clear with some of our teenagers a few years ago, like, when they were getting into more advanced math — calculus, trigonometry — I was like, “Listen, some of this stuff I haven’t done.
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So I really I can’t tell you from a place of expertise. I can– I can help you. We can work through it together. But it’s not going to be, like, a concept that I have mastery of better than you.” Which I think is a really interesting place to come from as a facilitator, because in most school environments, like, you are meant to be the one that holds more knowledge and mastery of the skills you are teaching. Right? And that’s not always how it looks at
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an ALC. It’s not always how it looks in a self directed learning environment. So, you know, it’s also math was a way to, like, humble myself and show kids that it’s OK to not be great at everything. And you don’t have to only spend time on the things that you’re good at. You can spend time on things that you’re not good at, and they can be helpful. Like, you know, we talk about all the time, what content do you need?
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And like, I think, you know, basic math skills are thing, most of us, we can agree are useful in life. And so, you know, that– that’s a… I think that’s reason enough to, like, to have that offering and to make it, you know, make it clear that you can practice something that you’re maybe not naturally inclined towards.
[00:25:56.960] – Abby
One of the things I appreciate about the maths offering — and I don’t hang out in the room even when it’s the physical room, but — is it is very collaborative.
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And I’m wondering, like, beyond, you know, reframing math as something people are already practicing — right? — and that’s relevant to their interests, and being transparent about your being someone practicing the skill set, are there things you do to set the space so it’s clear that the knowledge is in the room? And to inspire that collaboration?
[00:26:36.490] – Ryan
Yes. You know, as as people listening might know, most Agile Learning Centers are age-mixed and kids aren’t purposely separated by grade level. So one of the cool things that happens at math is there’s kids of different ages and different sort of levels of content, stuff they’ve that they’ve practiced or mastered already. And a lot of times kids will help each other and support each other. And what they’re doing in math– and, you know, as we’ve probably all heard many, many times, you learn something better when you teach it to others,
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right? Or in this case, like, help facilitate it with others. — And so I think that’s been one of the really cool ways that math has evolved. It’s become less about me as the person holding it being the only one that can help. And kids know that they can help each other and actually kind of take pride and take joy in doing that. Like that. They can say, “Hey, this is, like, a skill that I’ve practiced before.
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Let me show you how to do this.” And I think it did start– it started a couple of years ago when a student sort of was like my co-facilitator in math. And I’ll be honest with you, he had a higher level of mastery in a lot of math than I did so, you know, — and you know who I’m talking about — so I mean, I think that’s when it started. But it’s honestly expanded a lot in the past year since we’ve started doing math on Zoom twice a week.
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And we’ve got, you know, normally multiple breakout rooms going. There’s one or two students who like to do their own thing in the quiet room or pop back in if they have a question. Then there’s another small core group who like to be in the same room and that will help each other. So, yeah, it’s– it’s been really fun to see how that’s evolved and especially something that’s, like, probably traditionally thought of as something that is tedious and not fun and, you know, kind of high anxiety.
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This is definitely a low– a low level of anxiety math class, that’s for sure.
[00:28:38.350] – Abby
As it ought to be, because math is cool. Do you want to talk a little bit about…Because you also have co-fa– I don’t know about “co-facilitating”…Minecraft? The Minecraft worlds you’ve…done collaboratively?
[00:28:58.570] – Ryan
Oh man, that’s– Minecraft has been a whole thread through the years of ALC. And it’s been– it’s interesting, too, because Minecraft is a game that is sort of endless. And its development in our world —
[00:29:13.460]
right? — has been kind of endless. There’s updates and patches and things issued all the time, and they’re always adding to it and expanding it. But oh, man, we’ve… We started the first year of the school. I think it was maybe October when I first played Minecraft. And, you know, I played a ton of video games growing up, so I could see immediately it was– it was very different. And it was very– it was intuitive in a way that, like, it’s really easy to pick up.
[00:29:43.610]
But then you can tell that it’s expansive as well. And there’s so much you can learn from it and doing it. I mean, talking about math, like architecture, I mean, there’s countries that are planning their cities using Minecraft now because of the one one meter square blocks being the scale. And I mean, it’s just a lot of value in it. But, you know, I think some of the less obvious value in this relates to the worlds that we’ve built at ALC is that you can have, like, you can practice community. You know? And I think of a few students over the years that have been interested in that part to the extent that some have written entire constitutions and, you know, sort of very detailed rituals for these communities within Minecraft.
[00:30:32.180]
But we built an expansive world in the first year of the school. We called it No Cheats, because we wanted it to be a very strict survival server. And– and even that, now that I think of it, even, like, that sort of agreement making around ‘what is this world going to look like, that we’re building,’ ‘are we going to just, like, kill all the animals and harvest the crops and not replant stuff?’ Or, like, when we, you know, knock off the top two layers of the wheat, are we going to replant the seeds immediately?
[00:31:04.160]
And those are some of the really cool lessons and some of the really cool value that I’ve seen come out of Minecraft over the years. It’s like practicing community building, which of course, we’re doing as well IRL (in real life) in ALCs. I mean…So yeah, Minecraft is great. I mean, you know, I think, you know, at one point we stopped just hosting a local world. We had a server and kids from other ALCs started to join.
[00:31:33.620]
And then there was a whole new set of agreements, because it was like, oh, you know, there’s kids from other places who maybe we don’t know. And, like, maybe their perceptions of what is acceptable on a Minecraft server are different than ours. So, you know, as Minecraft is expansive, you know, the more I talk here, I’m thinking of more and more ways that it’s– it’s been an influence for us. But, yeah, I don’t know if that’s the answer to your original question.
[00:32:00.180] – Abby
Yeah, well, because I was thinking about co-facilitating in something super focused, like math, versus the way I’ve seen you co-facilitat the creation of Minecraft worlds and that kind of cultural stuff. Do you have any good, like, videogame conflict navigation stories?
[00:32:23.740] – Ryan
Yes. All right, I can think of one that’s that’s pretty cool. This is– this is once we had hosted our First World on a server. So this was, you know, I don’t know, maybe five years ago.
[00:32:39.910]
I can’t remember exactly when. But it was, you know, it was– it was still pretty early on. But we, you know, there were– there were multiple at this point. And we had opened the server to some other people. But this, this particular time that I’m thinking of was actually a student of ours wanted to bring one of his friends on the server with him. And so we had a white list, which means if you want to be on the server, you have to have your account name added.
[00:33:09.400]
And so the student had texted me and said, “Hey, can I bring my friend on the server?” And I think this is actually over a break. And that’s why they were they were hanging out together. And so I said, “Yeah, sure.” Like, I think, “It’s fine with me. Let me ask the other, like, moderator” who– we had two at the time, one– one student and one was myself.
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And, you know, the other moderator is cool with it and just said, “Hey, listen, let’s make sure they, like, know the agreements that we have,” because we actually had come up with a list of agreements at that point. And I think they were posted on a sign somewhere in the world. There was definitely a way you could access them. But in any event, he said, you know, as long as this person’s willing to abide by the agreements, I think it should be OK.
[00:33:54.640]
So, you know, I texted the kid back and said, “Yeah, that’s fine. Like, come on. Here’s the agreements. Just make sure that your friend is cool with all these things and is not going to, you know, break them.” And he said, sure. And so, you know, I guess they had been on there for a little bit. I remember I signed in maybe like an hour after he had asked and I– you know, in Minecraft you sort of spawn in somewhere, right?
[00:34:22.780]
Either at the place that you originally started in the world
[00:34:26.560]
if it’s your first time coming in or at the place you last were when you logged off. — So I spawned in, and right in front of my eyes were two, like, two other players. One of them I recognized as the student who had texted me earlier, and the other one must have been his friend. And here they were, like, breaking– breaking blocks of a structure that I can’t remember what it was, but it was something someone had built. Right? And one of the agreements was don’t break down other structures that players have built without asking them.
[00:34:58.270]
And this was very clearly not a mistake. Right? This is in our, like, sort of main town and, like, everything was built out. So I– I logged off really quick and I texted the other moderator and I said, “Hey, look, I think the other– the kid who I let on to the server is maybe, like, griefing.”
[00:35:19.020] – Abby
And so as just a real quick for non video game folks, “griefing”… I mean, I can try to explain…You play more than I do…
[00:35:29.670] – Ryan
Yeah, it’s good, because there’s a– there’s a — a difference between trolling and griefing which I think I should make clear. Trolling is kind of lighthearted fun, and it doesn’t do any physical damage that can’t be undone in a few seconds. It’s not, you know, it’s not meant to punish someone. It’s lighthearted. Whereas griefing is like — you’re, like, blowing somebody’s house up. Or burning it down. Or doing it with the clear intention of causing that person, like, harm or distress.
[00:36:04.260]
And so, you know, griefing is, like, definitely on another level, and trolling, I would say, under the agreements we had was definitely, like, OK and that kind of stuff happened. But this was, you know, this was on another level, because things were being broken and it wasn’t something could be easily, easily be repaired. So. You know, I don’t want to lose the — lose the original thread here. Because you asked me, like, about an example of facilitating video game conflict.
[00:36:35.290] – Abby
Right.
[00:36:36.020] – Ryan
OK, so the other moderator at the time kind of wanted to just ban– like, take this kid, this guest off the white list and then either, like, suspend or I guess, like, ban this other kid from the school from being on the server. And, you know, I think, like, this particular student, the moderator, had that sort of tendency at the time. That, like, if someone was breaking the rules, like, that was just it. Like, they’re– they’re out. Like, they said they were going to do it…
[00:37:12.140]
They didn’t… And so my… You know, I kind of tried to be a little softer. But, you know, listen, I get it. This guest who came on and, like, broke the agreements, like, yes, we should take them off the white list. But I think, you know, with this– with a student we should actually, like, give him a chance to explain and, you know, maybe, you know, maybe that will reveal something in context. Anyway.
[00:37:42.020]
You know, I spent– I ended up talking to this kid, the one who had asked to bring his friend on, and it was clear that they were in the same room when it happened. Like he knew what was going on and didn’t try to stop it, and then he felt– he felt really bad about it. So, you know, I can’t even remember what the final resolution was, but I think we decided on, like– like some sort of, like, suspension of privilege. It wasn’t– it wasn’t like he was banned from the from the world, but it was like…
[00:38:18.940]
Maybe we had, like, different tiers for our moderators at that point. So there was like, you know, moderators and then other people who are kind of like sub moderators. I think maybe we, like, took that ability from him temporarily and like…
[00:38:34.280]
I don’t… Feel like I’m losing my thread a little bit here. I don’t know what my– my lesson was supposed to be from this. But yeah.
[00:38:42.860] – Abby
You don’t remember what the Minecraft
[00:38:46.890]
restitution and reparations, all that was, but you, like… I feel like I remember that, because it was also our conflict process for the school was young, too. And so we were still setting the cultural norm of engaging with conflicts, like, in a way that is about curiosity and figuring it out and kind of collective solution-making rather than just punitive.
[00:39:12.920] – Ryan
Yes, and thank you, that helps me kind of get to the point I was trying to make. I guess that my, my facilitation in that point — with– at that point was to try to focus more on what you were just saying rather than, you know, “OK, this person did something wrong, like what is the correct punishment?”
[00:39:32.840]
Right. And I think it actually — it actually led to later and later iterations of our servers coming up with commands. This is something I didn’t have the ability to do. Like, kids who understood Minecraft better than me did this, but commands that prevented certain blocks from being broken or, you know, certain sort of actions that would be considered griefing were sort of programed out of the game.
[00:40:01.070]
So it was a way of creatively dealing with that. And then we could open the server to more people and not have to worry that, you know, these things would happen, you know? Not the whole– not that we didn’t have agreements anymore, and that holding them was important for maintaining, like, the kind of world we were trying to build. But, you know, sometimes coming up with a creative solution on the front end can save you a lot of a lot of time later.
[00:40:26.030] – Abby
So, yeah, for sure. I’m curious if — and I know the folks kind of stopped… like… Maybe there are video game examples, but I’m thinking about how much more work it was in those early years to have conflict processes be more, you know, restoration, transformation focused. Here, you know, five years, eight years down the road, have you noticed that changing and the way kids react to those situations changing?
[00:41:12.510] – Ryan
Absolutely.
[00:41:13.380]
And especially for the kids who have now been at that Agile Learning Center, at our learning center for three, four, five, six years. They’ve had time to practice that. They’ve learned that as a cultural norm, an agreement to not view conflict as the time to figure it out — who is wrong and why and what their punishments are going to be — but rather to figure out, like, you know, why did this conflict occur? Is this person having trouble holding agreements? Is that because the agreement is flawed?
[00:41:46.280]
Is that because, you know, they have some sort of misunderstanding about it or resistance to it? And to come up with creative solutions, not just to, like, make things run more smoothly, but to support that person, the person who maybe, you know, might have been pointed out as the, you know, the culprit if we are looking at it in a more traditional sense.
[00:42:10.610]
But, yeah, I mean, I think early on one of the challenges was that even though some kids had been in a school before, you know, that was similar, getting them to make that shift took more work on the part of us as facilitators, because maybe we had to drive the process a little more and we had to, like, maybe remind them that, like, hey, we’re not being punitive here. Whereas now it’s become a cultural norm that even when kids are newer to the school and newer to the conflict resolution resolution process, there’s — we use the term “culture keepers,”
[00:42:49.860]
right? — there’s this group of culture keepers who have learned how to do that pretty effectively already. And they can communicate and facilitate conflict resolution processes with as much– without as much active input from us. And we can sit back a little bit more.
[00:43:10.110] – Abby
OK, so I asked about an academic thing you facilitate and a screen thing. Pro screens over here. You used to run rad skate park trips. And currently have run — and will return soon to running — park trips, where my — my experience of you facilitating outside is that something about how you be with the kids — and maybe it’s tied to the playing and creating you do inside, too, I don’t know, but — it gives them, not just permission to try climbing a tree that’s bigger than they otherwise would, but, like, plants, like, a seed of confidence that maybe they could trust themselves a little more than they had.
[00:44:04.600]
So I’m wondering if you could speak to that, and if there is anything you do that, like, a baby facilitator might want to copy?
[00:44:15.320] – Ryan
Oh, man, so many things. I, like, I get hurt at work sometimes. Which is, you know, not so good for our insurance, but I’ve never been seriously hurt.
[00:44:27.110]
But — but what I’m getting at there is that, like– like, yeah, I get in there. I get– I play with the kids. I jump off stuff, and I hang on stuff, and, like, you know, everyone, kids and adults, everyone’s got different physical capabilities and abilities. But, like, the idea is just that, like, we’re outside. Like, let’s just do– let’s, like, do some stuff. Let’s run around, like, throw a ball, hang from the monkey bars.
[00:44:51.920]
And like, I try to– I try to always be doing with the kids and not just, like, kind of sitting there and watching. And, like, part of that’s just because it’s fun, more fun for me. But it’s, like, yeah, it’s definitely a more active facilitation style. And, like, also to — I think if you’re in it from that mindset and it’s not like when you go out to the playground and you see a teacher there from a traditional school at recess. And they’re kind of, like, saying “these are the rules.”
[00:45:20.960]
And, like, this is how, you know, the kids will relate to you differently as, like, the…just the rule maker. Rather than, like, also this person who’s playing and participating. It’s just more creative. It’s just in the same way that our change-up process is meant to be creative for agreements. Like, it’s easier to be a co-creator if you’re playing the thing and understand it and doing it, too. And then, yeah, I don’t know the confidence thing, I guess…
[00:45:54.860]
I don’t know. I’m not even really sure. I mean, maybe it’s just– maybe it’s the same sort of, like, attitude that I was just talking about. And, like, I… You know, I’m willing to, like, try things that maybe make me feel a little uncomfortable sometimes. I don’t know. I don’t want to say, like, it inspires kids to do that.
[00:46:11.300]
I don’t– I don’t know if it does, but that’s, you know, that’s how I, how I try to, like, I guess model. You know? Yeah. Talk about climbing trees, I’m like, I’m having flashbacks to, like… You know — and maybe people don’t know this if you don’t live in New York. You’re not supposed to climb the trees in Central Park. It’s, like, technically against the rules. But that’s a rule I really don’t like.
[00:46:41.090]
So that’s… I’ll just say this right now.
[00:46:45.110]
It’s one of those– one of those times I’m willing to bend, you know, bend the official rules to get kids something they need. Because there’s nothing like climbing a good tree, you know? Really feel alive up there. So I’m always… I’m always game for kids trying that if they… If they want to.
[00:47:00.910] – Abby
Yeah, definitely here for relationship building with trees. And I know when they’re in the trees or when they’re on top of that structure at the close park here, like, sometimes other adults see them and get nervous.
[00:47:18.130]
And, you know, we’ve all got our lines we used to, like, advocate when they go to be like, “Get down!” Mine’s usually like, “Oh, no.” Like, “I trust she knows her body,” like…
[00:47:31.200] – Ryan
That’s right, and those are– and those are important moments as a facilitator, because you’re going to be out in the world with kids and there’s going to be people who are, like, offended by what you’re doing. Or aghast at what you’re doing. Or don’t understand what you’re doing.
[00:47:44.860]
And it’s an important moment there where you– You know, most of the time you need to be, like, a little bit defensive, you know, of the– of your student, of your– of your kid there. And I don’t mean like… Maybe defensive is not the right word, but you need to definitely, you know, to be able to communicate to these other adults that, like, “No.” Like, “This person knows their boundaries. I trust their boundaries. If I thought they were doing something unsafe, I would not be letting them do that right now.”
[00:48:17.740]
So, you know, and most of these examples, when I say people are aghast, it’s like, you know, kids hanging from the pole on the subway or something. And it’s, like, actually not a big deal at all. And I think if most people had a moment later to think about that, about those moments, they’d see, like, that really wasn’t a big deal. But, you know, we have– like, there’s– there’s societal, like, expectations and norms of children, just like there are for adults.
[00:48:42.130]
And sometimes we step outside of those a little bit.
[00:48:46.400] – Abby
Yeah. I mean, ah… Are there moments where you’re nervous and what do you do in the moments where you realize you’re feeling nervous?
[00:48:58.410] – Ryan
Yeah, that’s a really good question, because, you know, I tend to– I tend to trust my instincts pretty, pretty deeply. But there are times that, having said that, there are times where I feel nervous and the reality is that it’s probably OK, right? So there’s those moments where I need to check myself and say, OK, this is making me a little nervous.
[00:49:23.630]
But, like, I do actually trust this person. Like, maybe it’s teenager. I’m like, OK, I know they know their body well enough that they’re not going to, like, you know, do this thing. So there are those moments. But then if there’s moments where I really do feel like something has shifted from risky play to unsafe play, like, I will — the first thing I’ll say to a kid is, “Hey, listen, that– that makes me feel really nervous. Like, I think that’s a bad idea.
[00:49:51.550]
Here’s why I think you might get hurt doing this, or here’s why I think you might break, you know, this thing doing this.” And I try to just explain it. And I rely on the fact that most kids that are going to our ALC respect me know me enough to know that if I’m saying “I feel nervous” about this thing and they shouldn’t do it, that’s probably a bad idea. You know? That’s not going to work 100 percent of the time.
[00:50:15.400]
But I have a good enough relationship with most of the most of the kids that they will probably take my advice there. But that’s… I mentioned a second ago risky play, and the difference between risky play and, you know, dangerous play. Or like, you know, injurious play. And like you have to… That’s a skill as a facilitator– it’s not something that most people have naturally, you know, and you have to practice that. And like, like I said, a part of– the big part of that is checking yourself and saying, like, am I just nervous about this because of something that happened to me in the past? Or that, like, maybe that is just a trigger for me, and really it’s OK?
[00:50:58.300]
Or like, is this actually dangerous? And do I need to, like, step in and– and, like, stop this?
[00:51:06.850] – Abby
Yeah, I probably have those moments more than you do. But it’s… For me, it’s gotten — And some of the other things that change in how we relate to situations, like, it’s got — I’m way less tired than I was, like, in the first year. Do you feel like it gets easier or…?
[00:51:30.520] – Ryan
Yeah. I mean, listen, it should never get so easy that you feel like you don’t have to do anything anymore, that you’ve figured it all out. Which is like, you know, it probably goes without saying for most people listening to this.
[00:51:42.130]
But, you know, if you ever feel that way, something is probably wrong. But it does get easier. And like anything else, the more hours, the more years you practice the thing, ostensibly, you’re going to get better at it, especially if you want to. And so, yeah, it does.
[00:51:59.020]
And now we can just get tired in different ways, from looking at screens too long or, you know, tired from having seven meetings with people. But yeah. I mean… I think at the end of the day, like, it does get easier, and if you’re doing this work and it’s something that you want to be doing, it’s going to energize you more than make you tired. And I think if, you know, you feel tired because you ran around at the park with kids, then that’s a good kind of tired to be.
[00:52:37.160] – Abby
Do you– did your relationship to play and, like, to learning… Was it always as interdisciplinary and trustful and expansive as it is now? You mentioned being a regular school teacher, and that’s a thing I know about you.
[00:53:01.600] – Ryan
Mm hmm. I think I always had that tendency. Honestly, I don’t think that I knew how to effectively take that tendency in myself and translate it to being a good facilitator, or even to being a facilitator. Because, you know, I didn’t, you know, get into education right away after college. But… Yeah, I mean…[pause]… No, definitely not, it hasn’t. I think I’ve always had a tendency to be a little bit more interdisciplinary and, you know, outside the box. Or just, like, wanting to focus more on,
[00:53:53.490]
like, making sure kids had, like, time and freedom to do things and, like, choice. And I mean, a lot of it’s been, like, about responsibility for me, too, even before Agile Learning Centers and, like, before I had any kind of concept of, like, how I would be a facilitator in a self-directed learning environment. I was kind of like, you know, giving kids the freedom to have responsibility to make their own choices. It just doesn’t work well in traditional schools.
[00:54:19.890]
So, like, you know.. I went to grad school, for context for everyone, to, you know, to become a teacher in a traditional school. I got a Masters of Education. And you learn, you know, certain buzzwords that are sort of, like, borderline self-directed. And they’re trying to, like, bring some of those concepts into the classroom. They call it “student centered learning” is a big one that you that you hear. But it’s kind of like lip service, really, if I’m being honest about what those– what those things are. It’s not like actually really doing the thing.
[00:54:52.010]
But in any event, I, you know, when I was teaching in public schools, I was trying to do self-directed learning as best I could. I was trying to create agreements for the classroom with kids. And, you know, it creates problems at a certain point. And I don’t mean just problems with, like, the kids being able to do it. I mean, with things you come up against, you know? There’s– there’s content that you have to teach, and there’s standards that have to be met.
[00:55:18.350]
And it just doesn’t leave a lot of time for the other stuff that I feel is actually really important. And it certainly doesn’t leave much time for community building among kids, which is a big drawback, I think, of most schools. But anyway, I’m getting sidetracked. So, you know, I wasn’t always like this. I think, again, it was my tendency. And I think that since I started working in a self directed learning environment, a place where
[00:55:44.950]
you know, there was limitless time for kids to choose what they wanted to do, it sort of unlocked my potential, I think, as a facilitator. And I started to, like…My concept of what was valid to be doing in school shifted even more.
[00:56:06.510] – Abby
Can I ask for some specifics? I — and I share this, as you know, but — what I’m hearing is, like, you were in regular school and were like, oh, this says it’s kids practicing what they’re going to need.
[00:56:26.790]
And it’s not that for them, and it’s not that for staff. And then jump to self-directed education. What were the specific things that you were looking for and that you valued?
[00:56:43.140] – Ryan
Yeah, I mean, first, I think first and foremost, it’s– it was just, like, kids having the ability to make choices, to choose how they wanted to spend their time and beyond, how they wanted to spend their time and what they wanted to do, how they wanted their community and their school to actually look and work. And, you know, different kids have different levels of interest in that. Some just want to be left alone to do their own thing, right? It’s the spectrum.
[00:57:12.210]
Right? Some kids just want to be left alone to do their own thing. And some are really process oriented and community oriented and really want to actively work on building that stuff. But just having the time and space for them to do that, and to make the choices about where they want to fall on that spectrum, that was– that’s kind of the biggest thing. Because without that, it’s hard to do all the other stuff. I don’t know, I mean, one of the other things is, like, pretty easy and I think is something that most facilitators are going to have to reckon with if they’ve had a more traditional education themselves, is to sort of remove their judgment a little bit from, like, what’s a valid use of time.
[00:57:58.680]
Right? Like, we hear from parents all the time. But, you know, sometimes it’s, like, all right, you just played that video game for two hours. Am I going to, like, think that wasn’t valid, because it was a video game? Well, as you and I know, there’s tons of research that supports the fact that video games are actually a really valid use of time and are, in fact, educational. So, you know, I mean, but– but there’s going to be things — right? — whether it’s video games, whether it’s…whatever, that you are just going to, like, personally be like, well, I wouldn’t do that.
[00:58:36.100]
And maybe even like, well, there’s like six better things you could be doing. You’ve got to be able to– you’ve got to be able to release that a little bit. And again, it’s like, if we’re effectively doing our jobs, if there’s patterns of behavior in a kid that is unhealthy or that is very clearly not serving what they are saying they want to do, then that’s– that’s our job as facilitators then to step in and do something at that point.
[00:59:06.580]
But there’s a big difference between an unhealthy pattern of behavior and things that are just not what we would choose to do or that we think are optimal. So. That was…Sorry…
[00:59:24.180] – Abby
You’re good! I think especially for new SDE facilitators, it bears mentioning that when we step in, usually that stepping in looks like, you know, checking what we’re assuming about what’s going on and projecting and being like, hey, you know, what are you doing?
[00:59:43.350]
Like, what’s fun about it? Like what…You know. And then collaborating, like, if there is, you know, something going on, it’s like, oh, they’re running away from this situation or, you know, there’s something that needs addressing underneath. It’s like, again, a curiosity based, a care based interaction rather than a, like “I said, get off the computer because I’m tired of seeing you there.”
[01:00:13.750] – Ryan
Yes, yeah, that’s a really good point.
[01:00:17.470] – Abby
Are there favorite tools or practices that you have for, you know, keeping yourself on top of your game as a facilitator, or for making sure you stay growing and learning?
[01:00:35.800] – Ryan
Top tools… I mean, you know me, I love a good game shifting board. And I’d say that we’ve been using it less in recent times, especially since we’ve been online. But I don’t know, maybe it’s– maybe it’s time to, like, give game shifting an upgrade. But I do love a good game shifting board. For people who don’t– don’t know that term out of context,
[01:00:58.990]
it’s– it’s a really effective tool for making visible certain things that are invisible and that we just sort of make assumptions about, you know? For example, you’re in a meeting and, you know, someone’s giving a presentation and you have a question. What do you do? You raise your hand, right? I mean, it’s like a cultural norm for a thing we do. But maybe it actually makes more sense in a given meeting to have someone just jump in when they have a question. Or maybe you require feedback and
[01:01:33.280]
we need to take turns in a circle responding, where everyone just says something once. A game shifting board takes these possibilities, ways of structuring, how we’re talking, what we’re talking about, start time, end time, you know, monitoring people’s, like, attention span and capacity, and it makes it all visible. You know, it’s usually a whiteboard or, you know, a chalkboard or something with magnets that you can manipulate to indicate these different settings. But it’s a really useful tool for that.
[01:02:06.490]
And also just maybe for people who are not as good at picking up, like, auditory cues and social sort of norms and, like, the way that the meeting’s operating, it literally makes it visible. And I know this because I’ve been, I’ve been reading over the– the new Starter Kit. And it– you can– I know you can find a section on game shifting boards there. But also, you know, I’m thinking about this because of the more visual aspect aspect of it.
[01:02:40.480]
I know for, you know, visually impaired folks that there’s versions now been done in Braille. Right?
[01:02:51.280] – Abby
Yeah, the– because the point of the game shifting board is to take, as you said, those implicit kind of social structures and make them explicit, so you don’t have to worry about them and so you can manipulate them more easily and in some ALCs… I’m trying to think. I don’t remember if– if they used Braille or if it was that they came up with kind of soft auditory cues, but in settings where having the visual board is hard– and we’ve done adaptations when we’ve got preliterate folks in the room or folks who aren’t as comfortable in English with some of the more jargony words — you adapt the tool.
[01:03:41.740]
And I’m looking for examples for the starter kit, which I will put in a link to in the meeting notes, once this is a thing that has meeting notes. But are there other– I’m asking about tools, because I know you like tools.
[01:04:02.470]
Like if you would like to gush about tools…
[01:04:04.570] – Ryan
Well, you said tools that keep me on top of my game as facilitator. I mean, that one is one that’s, like, I’m actively using with kids. I like actively using it with kids. I mean, you know, I’m a big organization guy. And so kanban– some form of kanban and-or Trello, you know, is– is a big tool for me. I mean, I’ve got multiple boards in my home. I’ve got my Trello board, which I interact with, I used to say daily, now it’s like hourly. And that’s not– I think if I wasn’t a facilitator, I would still really love a tool like that and it would really help me, just because of my brain.
[01:04:46.410]
So if you’re– if you’re an organizational brain person… Yeah. Kanban and Trello, big, big tools, I would, you know, promote. And for those who don’t know what they are, it’s just– it’s it’s a workflow tool. Again, you can find information about it in the Starter Kit, but it’s, you know, it’s a workflow tool for making your process visible. It’s, you know, I’ve heard it called the “to do list 2.0.” Essentially, you’re working with columns.
[01:05:17.820]
It can be something simple, like, you know, “ready, doing, done.” “Backlog, ready, doing, done.” You write cards using a Post-it, or with Trello, you do it online and you type into the cards, and then you move them across the across the swim lanes. And I don’t know. I mean, as far as tools that make me both a better facilitator and a more organized person, I don’t think any are better than– than a good kanban board.
[01:05:54.280] – Abby
What else? Are there… So that– that’s, like, a meeting facilitation tool and a, like, workflow task tool. Do you have any practices like… I have a ritual around my morning coffee, and I meditate outside of my facilitation hours so that I can show up in those facilitation hours present. Do you have any of those kind of practices?
[01:06:21.210] – Ryan
Yeah, absolutely. It’s– it’s usually lifting heavy things and putting them back down, or otherwise moving my body. No, it’s– I’m kind of joking, but really not, though. I mean, this, you know, I think… I’m glad you framed it that way, because showing up as your optimal self, like, that’s the way you got to facilitate. You’ve got to show up every day and try to be as close to your optimal self as possible. And obviously we’re human and there’s going to be– we all have tough days.
[01:06:49.920]
But, you know, for me, if I’m physically active, if I can work out and then also share that with other people, as I mentioned earlier, that allows me to show up and feel calm, to feel centered, to feel energized. You know, I’m the type of person that if I’m not moving around in a given week, I feel more cranky. I feel like I have less energy and I have less patience. So it’s– it’s just something I’ve learned over the years.
[01:07:22.110]
If I’m able to do that three or four times a week, I’m just– just a nicer person to be around and, quite frankly, a more effective facilitator.
[01:07:32.520]
Yeah.
[01:07:32.970] – Abby
I mean, know yourself. But…Great.
[01:07:39.090]
I don’t want to take too much more of your time.
[01:07:42.900]
Are there experiences you’ve had of being facilitated or other facilitators you’ve learned things from that you would want to pass on?
[01:08:00.050] – Ryan
Oh, man, definitely. I mean, one of the things that, that I kind of miss about the earlier days of Agile Learning Centers are ALF Summers. And I mean, it’s not that they don’t happen anymore. It was just, you know, in the beginning, it was all of us that were doing the thing in one place. And I mean, it was really fun.
[01:08:19.430]
And so, yeah, I was definitely facilitated a lot in those, in those scenarios. And then, you know, the sort of the proto- ALF Summer was Emerging Leader Labs. And that was, you know, I was definitely facilitated a lot there. I think you asked what would I want to pass on as, like…man. A couple come to mind, I mean… You know I love the archetypes game. Which, you know, it’s not perfect, kind of like astrology.
[01:08:53.200]
It’s just a fun game for knowing yourself and the people you work with, so thatone I would pass on. I don’t know if there’s any kind of, like, link or something we can put up to that, but…and… Oh, you know what, one actually just came to mind. This was from actually from ALF Summer, maybe three or four years ago, and the name of it is going to escape me, Abby. But we did the– we did the circle where there was a sort of, like, inner circle of people, of women in this case, giving– like, telling a story or, you know, essentially the ones doing the talking. In the outer circle were people just listening.
[01:09:37.160]
What… Do you remember the name of this? Hany facilitated it.
[01:09:43.360] – Abby
We’ve done a number of circle games…The one that Hany, who is a facilitator and founder at Zig-Zag, brought from an intentional community. I think in Spain. I believe they call it ZEGG. And one person steps in the middle and expresses what they’re– what’s present for them. And then other people step in and reflect back to them what they heard. And if I’m remembering correctly, that process came out of an awareness that if people are carrying stuff that– that’s not witnessed by the group, then that’s part of how resentments and assumptions can fester.
[01:10:27.180]
And that when you’re trying to be an intentional community, kind of having space to shine light on that stuff is really proactively– can be really powerful.
[01:10:37.720] – Ryan
Yes. It was Zegg, that’s what I was thinking. That’s kind of an old one. I don’t know why that came to mind, but it was– it was– I remember that being really powerful. And, you know, and that was also definitely a moment where I was being facilitated. And I highly recommend being facilitated if you are a facilitator, you know, in the same way that I was saying earlier, if you ever feel like you have it all figured out and like it’s just easy, then you should start worrying.
[01:11:06.860]
It should always be trying to up your game.
[01:11:09.820] – Abby
Yeah, it’s interesting that’s the example you mention, because I remember also being very struck by Hany’s facilitation. Like, witnessing and not being sure sometimes how he was choosing when to kind of interrupt and when to give a flow more space…and being super curious about that. Are there other teachers, facilitators, and… You know, it could be like “I took this workout class with someone and they used really– they did this thing and it was cool.”
[01:11:44.870] – Ryan
I just keep thinking of Margaret Killjoy right now, because when you said–
[01:11:50.040] – Abby
Yes! Shout out Margaret!
[01:11:52.010] – Ryan
I’m just thinking of that trainer that she had on and that was just like…
[01:11:59.030]
It was like everything that they said was so simple. Yet, it was like exactly what I think a lot of people who are trying to get into fitness, or even looking at it from my side, people who, like, do fitness as a profession or a side hustle should think about. I mean, this is pretty specific, what I’m about to reference, but it’s like, you know, the idea that the best exercise for you is the one that you’ll do consistent– consistently. You know? And that was, like, one of these concepts that I was like, yes.
[01:12:33.940]
Like, this is what it is. Like, if I work with a client or if I’m working with, like, a group fitness class, like, why am I going to, like, give them something that feels like punishment or they’re relating to like, oh, this is, like, so hard and I’m, like, struggling against this thing? Nah, do the fun thing. You’re going to stay with that longer. Do the thing that, like, maybe it is, like, frustrating and challenging, but it’s, like– you’re excited by that challenge.
[01:12:59.220]
Um. Yeah, I don’t know. I don’t know why my mind went to that, but…
[01:13:04.690] – Abby
I mean, that’s a great example. And I need to shout out Margaret also, because that podcast, Live Like the World is Dying, I’m pretty sure is part of why I was like, maybe I’ll start a podcast.
[01:13:22.990]
So it certainly was inspiring for me.
[01:13:26.200] – Ryan
I mean, she’s got some really cool stuff going on.
[01:13:30.130] – Abby
Yeah, I’m a little self-conscious, because I don’t have an auditory ear and I’m like, “oh gosh. A bunch of the people who do podcasts I like also have bands.” I bet they hear that my mic quality is just, you know, this shitty mic on my laptop. But it’s fine, it’s good enough. It’s… You do the thing that you’ll do, right?
[01:13:54.430] – Ryan
That’s right. There’s always time to get a better mic. It’s the content that really matters.
[01:13:59.080] – Abby
And I’m going to put that on the Internet later, and it’s going to make me uncomfortable in all the best ways.
[01:14:11.920]
Great. Do– Anything I didn’t ask about and should have?
[01:14:17.570] – Ryan
Well, I’m in the business of trusting you, generally, so I’m going to say no and that this has been really fun. And yeah, thanks for– thanks for asking me such great thought, thought-provoking questions.
[01:14:35.530] – Abby
Yeah, gladly. Thank you for sharing. It’s been a delight to facilitate alongside you for the past eight years, and to co-direct, and now to co-admin! Which I didn’t ask about. But, you know, maybe once I got a better mic we can do a part two.
[01:14:56.110] – Ryan
That sounds good. I’ll be happy to.
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